RareCJ8
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Posts posted by RareCJ8
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On the CJ8 Scrambler, I am using the stock proportioning valve and the vacuum assist is a Navajo Booster sold by Harold Off in NM. Works great. I have tested the panic stop and all is within proper spec front to rear ratio.
mb
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Very informative. Someday I hope to convert to disc rear brakes, however, my rear axle is a Ford Sterling 10.25". Kits are out there but far beyond my budget. I'd sure like to ditch the heavy drum that on muddy conditions tends to collect grime (when dries out is like cement). In winter, moisture in the drums will freeze up making mobility impossible.
One challenge is I demand an e-brake on my 4x4 for many sane reasons and the kits offer that feature for even greater cost. So for now, will stay with drums and hope all that unsprung weight keeps me closer to terra firma, LOL.
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For the standard inline external pump, I am designing the aux pump system and have three of them here. The old one, a replacement and a 'gotta carry a spare' one. In the process of converting to -AN 6 in/out hardware, I stumbled upon an interesting discovery.
The out of the box fuel pump uses a screw-on adapter designed to accept 5/16 input line. Most installers use 3/8 line and just clamp it down. Problem is the 5/16 brass inlet fitting severely restricts the suction end of the pump. It's already working hard enough, why choke it?By adding a 3/8 inlet fitting more fuel will pass and may eliminate starvation issues. Will get pix up later, but research shows this is true. We'll see once the system is on line. -
Follow up Q: in aviation, fuel and oil filters are cut open for examination. Requires a special can-opener tool. Do you have a simple suggestion to carefully open either without contaminating the sample? I tried once with a band saw and just made a mess. might be interesting to see what's being captured in a closed-cell filter.
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its 5/16" efi rated line from top of internal pump assembly to the YJ filter. CRO33000076 exiting the filter is 3/8" going fwd. why the jeep engineers made the inlet different from the outlet is unknown. Perhaps to stupid proof installation so the tech does not install filter backwards?
the pick up for the mopar efi conversion exits top of tank on driver side and the 'straw' goes to the floor of tank but there is no servicable internal fiter, thus the need for an external pre pump filter just like the kit directs.
so:
in tank pump with screen/sock to new spin on filter.
or
tank to pre filter to aux pump to new spin on filter.
searching for an acceptable pre filter that also uses AN fittings. need data on micron rating and volume, but its on the suction side and not under EFI pressures.
as for power, yes whatever was designed in the mopar efi kit is how the pump is powered. I have weather pack plugs. unplug one, hook up the other and go. (that's the plan, anyway!)
i have suffered thru several years of fuel delivery issues, from one problem to another and its always on my mind driving along it can die at any moment. This time i'm throwing some $ at it to make it easier to service, etc
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Tired of the hassle dealing with changing out your YJ style frame mounted fuel filter? Me too. Messy and time consuming. Thanks to guidance and suggestions from Moses, this is the new plan:
In tank pump exits with 5/16" efi rated hose to a 6 or 8 AN filling into a spin-on fuel filter installed in same location as the old YJ filter. From there another 6 or 8 AN fitting and tie into the metal fuel line that heads forward to engine. Removal and filter replacement will be a simple affair. Ordered the RM350.
http://www.fstperformance.com/
In the spirit of redundancy will also install the MOPAR in line 12 volt fuel pump and mount along upper cross member in front of tank. This will be fed from the other tank pick up to a AN fitted pre-filter, then pump and another lead from pump to the new spin on filter, but blanked off. Should the need ever arise to switch pumps, simply unscrew the in tank pump supply line and attach the supply line from aux pump. The unused end will be properly capped off from debris in either case. Then unplug in tank pump from power harness and plug in the aux pump, prime and off we go.
While on this project will also add an auto meter dash mounted electronic fuel pressure gauge that will get its signal from the fuel rail schrader valve port.
when we go for a long trip and perhaps also tow the pack mule trailer, the rear of jeep tends to sag leading to a nose-high attitude. Not very safe road manners, even with sway bar attached and the departure angle is compromised. Will install a set of gabriel hi jacker air shocks to level the rear end and, as necessary, adjust departure angle on trail obstacles and mitigate smashing the new gas tank! These shocks are 22" extended and 14" collapsed. This will not affect the existing rancho 9000s. In cab will have a dual paddle controller to handle air management duties. like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320511185841
Once the parts are here, along with new aero tank, etc etc will photo-document the progress of these important and helpful upgrades and post here.
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Thinking of a serviceable fuel filter when I install a new Aero fuel tank. Phenix Industries F78100-H is 100 mircon. Is that sufficient compared with the mopar yj filter? (cannot link to the info) its very durable, stainless inside and is re buidlable with an internal element:
I can adapt the filter and other connections with 8AN fittings to make filter cleaning/removal a snap. Will also plumb the external pump (to be held in reserve for an emergency) with same fittings so if there is a fail, simpy unscrew the in tank line and swap over the line from the auxiliary pump!
Auto Meter fuel pressure gauge in transit along with an adapter for the fuel rail. remove the needle valve in the schrader on rail, screw on this Y adapter. It retains a Schrader to bleed down system or add a tool, and the other part of the Y accepts the auto meter sending unit that then runs electrical power to the gauge in the cab.
finally, awaiting delivery of gabriel hi jacker air shocks for the rear to assist road manners when loaded up with 30 gal fuel, camp gear and towing a trailer. Will power/deflate each independently from cab using on board air already in place.
next weekend will be the big build/wrench fest...Need to make the Rubicon Trail next month!
Mark
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Ah, Reese River Valley. We recently stopped into the abandoned Hess Ranch. Interesting ruins. The drive up Big Creek over to Kingston is fun but there is a pesky seasonal snow drift right at the top that denies many intrepid explorers. Same for Northumberland Pass. We have a fall run in the planning stages to traverse northern Nevada from Jarbidge to Gerlach, hitting all the isolated mining camps and fishing lakes.
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Moses, thanks so much for all the help. New pump ordered and on its way to me VIA UPS. Tomorrow tank goes to A1 Radiator to get hot tanked... Let the build begin...
Mark
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Moses wrote:
Note: Each of these pumps are designed to fit the OEM pump module, they are not fitted at each end with a host nipple—one end only. See the illustrations for details, this may not work if you don't use the OEM module stand. Contact www.fuelpumps.com and see whether they have a universal Walbro that has hose fittings at each end and the flow rate you're looking for, Mark. As long as the pump wiring will match the Mopar EFI kit approach (confirm before buying), that should do it. Share the Mopar EFI kit pump number with them: 1-888-841-8288.
Not clear here Moses. The link shows the in tank pump that has an exit tube that i will connect to the supply (going thru the top mounting flange and out to filter, etc.) The bottom of the pump affixes to the pick up sock screen. All I need to is attach power (using the existing blade connectors already on the pump support tower, attach pump itself to the support rod, adjust for height and go.
I like the thread sert idea. The hole the in tank pump was not an Areo option-- we did that after the fact, picking a suitable location and dropping a 3" bi metal hole saw to make the opening then drilled and tapped the pump mounting screw holes.. The base material is very thin and eventually impacts to the tank caused the top to warp with attendant leakage and 'I smell gas' comments. The 'dinner plate' idea is to beef up and reinforce the super thin mounting area and better distribute to load over a larger area. If not, then thread sert 1/4" plate to uneven 1/8" tank material may not hold. By comparison, if you can see where the smaller hole accepts the sending unit. It has a thick collar welded around the opening. That is what i want to do with the pump opening. My friend runs a machine shop to open the center of the plate to the exact dimension of the top flange. If the plate is tig (or?) welded to top of tank, only need a gasket for the 3" round opening where the flange assembly drops thru the dinner plate down into tank. Then tap the flange mount holes into the dinner plate. Its hard to describe with words only... argh. Since the dinner plate is mild steel, concern is whether any undersurface exposed to fuel will cause rust... but i guess rust is the law...paint will only come off into tank. powder coating seems impractical. I could skin it with a thin piece of stainless underneath...
I will order the second of the two walbro pumps you linked and get this process going.
Thanks,
Mark
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thanks for the reply. i want to retain the in tank pump as primary feeder and the external pump only for emergency back up. i like the idea of perhaps a ball valve, so to switch over by climbing under and unplug/plug in and go. The biggest issues i've had with the external mopar pumps (yes, all are the conversion model) is depriming after sitting a while or the supply line drying out and cracking, thus sucking air. that can add a lot of stress to the day.
The only way I have found to re-prime the external pump is to use a 10' length of heavy wire with alligator clips and manually add 12 volts to the pump to force run for about 15 seconds-- this brings pressure right up. Reliance upon key on/off will not do it. I will pass on the YJ module and plan is to look for a replacement pump to attach to the existing top flange, power connections, support assembly shown on the pix, etc. Any opinion on the yj-xj in tank pump? (PN 52018391P) Sufficient pressure and volume?
the welding will be the brown round dinner plate size piece of metal that i want to reinforce in this area when the pump mounts to top of tank. it's just mild steel and was painted tan for an unused project. Clean it up, have the center opened to accept the tank top flange, tap screw holes and tig into place, thereby reinforcing the mounting area. as it is now, it is not even level--somewhat warped. Thus the cracked seal and leakage.
Until I hit megabucks, will just use new fuel lines and work on plumbing in some hard line as necessary. Obtain new in tank pump to fit on the existing flange and support assembly, get tank repaired and hit the trail. Going on the jeep jamboree in late July, so every day is critical...
mark
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Part II
ok, tried to paste a link to photobucket pix-- no go. is there a trick?
The last couple weeks before the pump died, at key on when the computer flashes a fast 12 volts to the pump, when it powers for a moment, before it was relatively quiet, but lately it gave a real growl that one guy said he heard from 50' away. Even at idle, the pump was distinctly loud all the time. Approaching death throes?
Before we dropped the tank we used the temp pump to suck out the remaining fuel to make it easier to handle. Pumped out the fuel thru a Mr. Filter into a sceptor MFC. Extracted about 9 gallons. Inspection afterward of the Mr. Filter showed some debris, milky looking unknown stuff that pooled on bottom--- water. The Mr. Filter will separate particles and water from gasoline. So we know there was water in tank and likely ??? The metal chips and debris visible and removed with a magnet were not rusted, but clean, fresh bits.
When we removed the pump the pick up sock had some grime but not much. Have pix of all this.
We then bench tested the pump direct to the power terminals and yes, it is dead. For sure. Removed the pump itself from the assembly and am now looking for a replacement. Mopar/jeep PN 52018391P looks like the ticket. (research shows it's an internal pump for 94-95 YJ/XJ). Is this sufficient? Also looking at the YJ fuel pump/sending unit module but the ones offered from gen right are for a HO application. Will likely pass especially since i already have a working dedicated sending unit that works with the CJ gauge.
To remedy the sealing of the pump to tank area, plan to first have tank hot boiled, then cut a larger opening in top and have a friend tig weld on a larger round, 1/4" thick plate. This will be opened in center to allow pump to drop in and tapped for the screws. This larger surface area may eliminate cracked seal. Since the underside of the plate will be exposed to fuel, etc, am worried about rust, so maybe we can score a piece of stainless, but its hard to work with.
We also measured from tank opening to bottom of tank 13" exactly and measured the pump assembly-- 13" we can see where the sock was making contact on bottom of tank-- movement actually scuffed up a small patch of the tank floor. When we installed it last time, we made sure there was at least 1/2" clearance. It now appears hitting the tank on obstacles has pushed up the bottom making contact with the pump sock and maybe even the pump itself.
So once a suitable replacement pump is obtained, and we hope to re use the mounting assembly, etc, we will make sure it is at least 1" off the floor then button it all down.
Since i have three spare mopar style external pumps will plumb in a back up delivery system. These pumps, assorted fuel lines, filters, fittings, clamps, etc were in a trail bag i left home for the trip-- thinking it runs OK, so no need to take. Jeep lesson #5291. Often times think we should tow a spare CJ along just for parts! From the old 'straw' port on driver side of tank, we plan to bend up some dedicated hard brake/fuel line and exit tank, wrap around the front corner and on the forward upper mounting tab for tank, install the external pump. have not decided if need hassle of a pre-filter. (suggest a PN?) From there more hard line at pump outlet and bend over to pass frame rail where i use a YJ style fuel filter and frame mount. At this point the hard line will be capped off. Power to the back up pump will have a similar weatherpack plug capped off also. Should the in tank pump ever fail, i simply move power over to the external pump, and some fiddling with connections to plumb it into the filter.
Would really like to find or ID a better way to make fuel line connections. Wish list includes rather than rubber to metal and hose clamps (i use the EFI rated clamps), but some sort of quick disconnect couplings. For example, changing the fuel filter on my Chevy truck is a snap--unplug lines and plug in new filter. This would make it a lot less messy and easier. Suggestions?
Next is to find an electrical PSI gauge so i may monitor fuel pressure from the cab. As it is now, i screw the gauge onto the schrader valve and with an extension hose, pass under hood and just duct tape to drivers mirror.
Will also consider, since its all getting redone and with fresh lines, a new fuel pressure regulator. A friend has several, so why not?
So the questions for the day include a proper replacement pump. I'd like to reuse the support and top flange pump assembly. The YJ module is $$$$$ and cannot use the sending unit feature with out spending more $ to retrofit the gauge.
then whether to use hard brake line or fuel line. is there really a difference. Then locate a tool to properly bend it. Then the fun task of reinstalling the tank. One really needs baby hands to get to the tight upper fittings. Am still on the fence for an access panel. we marked the underside to drill a pilot hole should i ever elect to open it wider. Or just do it now...dunno. That depends on whether i can use the existing pump mount/flange which is round, compared with the YJ square design.
will post up more as i think of add'l issues.
mark
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Moses, thanks for all the helpful suggestions and for a fine reference library of priceless info. The back story is when i first did the mopar efi conversion on the 258 i used the external pump and a pre and post filter set up. The tank outlet feeds from driver side, so the hose exits tank above the exhaust and travels over to the passenger frame rail. Near the upper cross member I installed the pump and filters, securely mounted. Problem was over time the supply line would become dry and crack, causing untold fuel supply issues. Sleeving it all with some radiator hose didn't help. Than as now, the pump is powered per the install directions, relays, etc.
After consulting with Lee Hurley, he suggested upgrading to an intank pump, which i did. Cut a 3" round hole in top of tank, which is an Aero 33 gal mammoth. (also a tail dragger on some steep departures). That pump (model unknown but have pix) bypassed the old tank pick up and exited tank at top thru the pump then routed to the OEM mopar fuel filter (the one with 3/8 and 5/16 ends). All worked well for about 2 years, then the old problem of 'i smell gas' comments. Discovered where we mounted the pump into tank it is just a thin material. We tapped the screw holes and siliconed it up tight, but after a few good whacks on the tank, the top warped a bit and compromised the pump to tank seal, causing spillage. This was only a real problem when tank is full (lots of $$) and on off camber situations, so i let it go and on the to-do list.
Six months after the stroker build my mechanic took her in for some tweaks because of pinging under load. That was addressed, but started to experience very rough cold starts. Have to let it idle for 10 minutes until the loop changes, then perfectly drivable. Sometimes it would take 3 or 4 starts to keep it running. Anytime during these events, give a little throttle and it dies.
Fast forward to last weekend. Still rough cold starts, multiple tries to get running, but all seemed well after warmed up. We were 60 miles north of a gravel road, far and deep into the remote section of the NCA when i felt a sputter, then a backfire. Oh, ok, keep driving. Got another 1/2 mile and she stumbled and died. After several hours, yes hours, of trying this and that to ID the problem, the screw on pressure gauge told the whole story. Pump would struggle to get to 15 or 20 psi, then as noted above, would die. Fuel starved. We ran a dedicated hot line to the weatherpack power plug for pump near tank, and it would not run at all. I do carry the old in-line pump but we gave up after trying to get proper fittings, clamps to graft it inline. So a very long and bumpy ride back to the gravel road, then another 30 miles to the ranch where we were able to cobble together parts to drive back to reno.
Yesterday we pulled the tank with interesting observations. That will be my next post. Trying to paste a link to parts and photobucket w/ no luck. Will post Part II in an hour or so...
Mark
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Moses...We spent another great extended weekend in the Black Rock with the CJ-8—except for one thing. On a day trip to High Rock Canyon, Jeep started to misfire and even backfire then just stopped running. We monkeyed around with 100 possible issues but soon learned only 20 psi at fuel rail. Would start, but give gas and die, or let idle and after a minute pressure slowly drops and engine dies. Then after further testing, pump stopped running and zero pressure. Ran a dedicated hot wire to pump hot lead near inlet and nothing...would not run.
Had a spare external pump, and we cannibalized from 4 other Jeeps along, just could not make it work. Needed additional fuel lines and fittings, hose clamps, etc. We even back flowed the filter alongside the trail with what little lines we had and all sorts of black puke came out...Captured the fuel in a Coke bottle and saved it. Lots of black particles settled to bottom...So I suffered the indignity of being towed 60 miles over very silty, talcum power trail, near zero visibility (since strapped to a tow rig), and since we aired up the front tires to make steering and towing easy, a VERY rough ride.
Hauled the CJ-8 to a friend's area ranch, and with help from their well stocked shop, I was able to cobble together a patch. Hose clamped the spare pump to frame rail and routed power and supply lines. What a pain! Taped a fuel pressure gauge to driver's mirror to monitor pressure on the long drive home. As for pressure, the engine idles at about 38 and bumps up to about 41 under acceleration, but no more.
So plan is to cut a hole in the rear tub for future possible fails. The big question is, first, what replacement pump and are there psi values for that? Or does the regulator handle all that? Wonder whether more PSI will help run better.
This is still a cold mother on start up—before doing some work, it often took 3 or 4 times to get to run. After temp sender fix, starts on 2nd try. Very likely failing pump contributed to recent performance issues. New pump will tell. And once the hatch is cut, I will carry a spare pump!
Cutting the hole looks pretty straight forward. About 1" clearance, so start small and work outward. Don't want to cut the supply or return lines...In any event, will have to drop the tank to clean and see what's inside...It just might be easier to locate the access panel with the tank still in vehicle.
Any thoughts on pump ratings, regulator or??? With those Ford 302 V-8 injectors, what PSI do they like to run properly? Are there any specific advantages to converting to a single fuel line supply system? I am SICK of dealing with intermittent fuel delivery issues and am now more than ever committed to designing a long-term fix. I wonder if the injectors are fuel starved?Mark
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Name is Mark, and I live at Reno. Wheeling since 1976, like 4x4s, ATVs, dirt bikes and my beloved, and sometimes hated, 1981 CJ8 Scrambler. Interested in all things Jeep!
mb.
EFI Fuel Filter Upgrade And Other Fixes
in 1972-86 AMC/Jeep® CJ and Jeepster Models
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The pick up outlet on tank is 3/8 as are the fittings on the pre filter. Research shows the screw on fitting for inlet is Ford sourced. Had to change that to accept the AN hardware. Will research further. Several lengthy discussions on this issue at forums.