Moses Ludel
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Posts posted by Moses Ludel
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So, this is telling, Tenny...I applaud your tenacity and ambitious pursuit of the knock source...Reading through your findings carefully, I believe you have excessive carbon in #4 cylinder. 175 psi at this mileage would only be possible with carbon. Like you note, a leakdown test could compare each cylinder's ability to seal, which would bring the compression comparison more into focus.
The new borescope should reveal considerable carbon on the crown of the #4 piston, possibly a coating on the combustion chamber as well. Let us know what you think of the borescope. Short of cylinder head removal, this tool provides clarity during in-depth engine troubleshooting.
If you do find considerable carbon, enough to explain a carbon knock, the logical step is to remove the cylinder head, easy enough on the engine stand, and de-coke the piston crowns and combustion chambers. Note the cylinder wall condition, the crosshatch and any taper. If you suspect the rings have wear, this is clearly the time to pull the rods and pistons, hone the cylinders, wash the cylinders carefully and install new rings. Measure pistons carefully for round, wear and any skirt issues.
The skirt coating is especially worth noting, it is notorious for wearing off. Cracked skirts have been noted on many 4.0L engines, possible on the 2.5L and worth considering. Engines generally do not carbon knock under deceleration, especially EFI engines that virtually shut off the fuel flow. Piston skirt condition is clearly a consideration.
If you do just the de-coke procedure, after reassembly, perform a leakdown test for a clean slate reading of cylinder seal. Cranking compression is nowhere near as accurate as a leakdown test. Make sure there is no loose carbon or debris present before performing a leakdown test. As you de-coke the pistons, vacuum away debris.
A good review about now is my exchange with "Wayne". He had very good success with his in-chassis overhaul of a 2.5L TJ Wrangler engine. The work would be much easier on the engine stand:
Keep us posted and thanks for sharing!
Moses
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Hi, Toddw...You do need the later block if replacing a 2005 TJ Wrangler engine or block. Jordan89oak has lived the experience of swapping a late TJ 4.0L into an earlier model Jeep. In his case, it went back to compatibility with 4.2L era inline sixes for engine mount bolt hole castings. Your concern is the other way around, you need the later block (specifically a 1999 WJ Grand Cherokee or 2000-2006 TJ Wrangler block). This is a useful read, Jordan89oak opens with the frustrating differences between the earlier and later block castings and motor mount methods:
So, the blocks that directly interchange with a later TJ 4.0L like yours would be a 1999-up WJ Grand Cherokee or 2000-2006 TJ Wrangler. The 2000-2001 XJ Cherokee blocks remain similar to 1999-back, so avoid an XJ Cherokee block for your 2005 model.
The breakdown of 1991-up 4.0L block interchangeability goes like this:
1) XJ Cherokee, ZJ Grand Cherokee and YJ or TJ Wrangler (through 1999) 4.0L blocks interchange.
2) 1999 WJ Grand Cherokee 4.0L blocks are similar to the 2000-up TJ and WJ blocks.
[New short block assembly for your application when it was available] 05013161AC 4.0L BLOCK, Short, Contains: Crank,
Rods, Pistons, Rings, Cam
Bearings, Timing Chain, Sprockets
[Remanufactured replacement long block; a fitted block plus the cylinder head] R2640492AA Mopar Reman Long Block
for 1999-04 (WJ Grand Cherokee), 00-06 (TJ Wrangler)3) Your replacement block must be for a 2000-up TJ Wrangler or 1999-up WJ Grand Cherokee and not any year XJ Cherokee or ZJ Grand Cherokee.
Why? As jordan89oak shares, the motor mount locations/bolt hole castings and engine driven accessories mounting holes in the block casting change with the 1999 WJ 4.0L and the 2000-up TJ Wrangler. The 2000/2001 XJ Cherokee block remains similar to 1999-back XJ/YJ/ZJ/TJ 4.0L engines. The better castings for these older engines are 1996/1997 and up. The long block engine assemblies for 1991-1999 XJ Cherokees with Mopar EFI/MPI interchange; 2000-2001 XJ Cherokee long blocks are unique (a coil-on-plug head with the '99-back block design); 1987-90 4.0L XJ engines are the Renix EFI design with a different cylinder head and port locations plus provision for a knock sensor, which makes the 1987-90 4.0L Renix long block assemblies different from the 1991-up Mopar MPI design.
You're only dealing with the cylinder block, but for cylinder head changes, the major change is the coil-on-plug introduction, which begins with the 1999 WJ and the 2000-up XJ Cherokee and TJ Wrangler.
Does that help? I provided Mopar replacement part numbers to emphasize your block casting group...
Moses
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Keep us posted, Liam Angus! Curious how this resolves...Moses
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Tenny...Thanks much for sharing these details. You were thorough in your approach as usual...Some additional thoughts and quips below:
On 7/6/2022 at 2:41 PM, Tenny said:Hello again Moses:
The oil flush I used was Liqui Molly pro line engine flush.It has great rating's and cost more then most so it must be good.The oil in the engine at first was 10W 30. After 250 easy back road miles,(probably 8 hrs run time) I figured the knock wasn't going away on it's own.I drained 1 qt. of hot oil from the engine and added the flush. I followed the instructions (start and idle engine for 15-20 mins then change oil and filter) After filling and installing a new oil filter, I filled the engine with diesel Rotella 15W 40 oil because I read it still has zinc in it for flat tappet lifters(is this a good idea ?).I also added 4 oz of Marvel mystery oil.
The Rotella certainly would not hurt anything, though the 15W is high for cold weather start-ups. I use 10W-40 in the 4.0L in the summer, 5W-30 in the winter if parked outside without using the block heater. When the block heater is in play, I use 10W-40 year round..Marvel Mystery Oil won't hurt anything, either; the product has been around forever. I used it in the late sixties on carbureted light truck engines that really benefited from Marvel Mystery Oil and Rislone.
Before starting it back up I pulled off the coil wire and cranked the starter a few times until I had oil pressure.I then started it and after about 30 sec. it still had the knock but seemed to be louder now. It could have been the natural worsening of what ever is causing the knock since it had some added run time. Hard to be sure. I do know the entire inside of the engine is now spotless and the valve train free of any sludge.
When I drained and dropped the oil pan to check the piston skirts, I did notice about a 1/2 tea spoon full of black,crunchy carbon deposits +/- the size of a pencil tip in the bottom of the pan.I ran a magnet in the drained oil and pan but didn't get any thing on it so I know there wasn't any steel nor was there anything shinny.The deposits could be crunched between my thumb and finger leaving a black smudge so I don't think they were the chain tensioner ether. I thought the oil flush or running Seafoam through the throttle body may have cleaned these deposits from the internals.There was also some in the drain pan as well when I dumped it.
Solid carbon of "crunchy" variety could be simply the slough from hot (oil cooled) areas of the block. The result of carbon loosened from piston crowns or combustion chambers is unlikely, as that carbon would pass out the exhaust and not get past the rings. More likely, this stuff was from the cylinder head valve spring areas, timing case or main caps, the hottest spots in the engine. As you note, the flushing could have loosened this carbon and sent it to the oil pan.
I cut open the first oil filter(the one w/250 miles on it) and found no metal or debris in it.
Consistent with your bearing inspection and other observations that you have shared...
Oil pressure has always remained steady around 50+ psi. even @ hot idle.
I haven't had any CEL's and did scan for codes but have none present at this time.
While the Jeep was running and knocking, I've removed the plug wires one at a time (twice) and it didn't affect the knock.Would this rule out a injector, carbon build up or other spark/ fuel knock issue? I am going to use this problem as an excuse to get a borescope. It would be helpful in many projects I get involved with.
Would rule out piston slap (rock at the skirt), mainly. Could also reduce a loose connecting rod or piston pin noise. This would eliminate a lean knock, too. A fuel trim check could troubleshoot for a lean knock. Simply reading the spark plug coloration is helpful if the compression is uniform.
Again, this is why I like the CT200 injector cleaner and flow test machine. I am able to confirm whether the injectors flow properly. I saved a bundle after cleaning my OEM/original 4.0L injectors with the ultrasonic cleaner phase of the machine and installing new filters. Fortunately, the flow tested uniformly and as new on each injector, and I could take the injectors off the troubleshooting list. I avoid using off-shore Brand-X type injectors, and new genuine OEM Bosch or Siemens injectors can get quite pricey. The machine nearly paid for itself the first time I used it. It will amortize with a couple of injector cleanings.
You will really like the borescope. They can be bought for well under $100. Daily use pro grade scopes with more recording and optics features cost more.
If good lifters are slightly convex then my old lifters do have some wear since they do have a slight concave(dish) shaped base.I believe since all of the cam lobe bases were shinny only on the rear 1/3 portion, the lifters have been worn this way for a while.If they were convex it seems the would have shined up the middle of the lobes, not just the edge.
Yes, that would be the case. That's also a lot of camshaft wander, as you have noted. According to the wear pattern, the camshaft is walking forward, toward the timing cover. The lifter/lobe wear and thrust button would be involved. The timing sprocket is moving outward from the block and not staying in alignment.
As I mentioned earlier,the old distributor I removed had about 1/16" of side movement at the rotor end but none at the gear end.I plan to remove the shaft from the housing and gear from the shaft to use it in a drill to prime the engine with oil before starting with the new cam and parts.
Good use of worn parts...Why waste a "primer tool"?
When I ran the engine without the rocker cover trying to locate the knock, I did notice 4 push rods spun very fast and 4 much slower.They would be the 4 with the non tapered wear on the high point of the lobes. I did have lots of oil quickly coming up to the rockers. Also putting pressure on 1 rocker at a time didn't affect the knock ether.
Pressure on each rocker was a good test for valvetrain issues...The spinning pushrods would be characteristic of distinct lobe wear and valve clearance issues. A CompCams gauge ($20) is a must for selecting pushrod lengths and also serves well to troubleshoot valve clearance issues like lobe wear or, going the other way, valve seat recession. Part of your thorough valvetrain renewal should include a check of the pushrod lengths with a CompCams or similar gauge. If valve face wear and seat recession are minimal, renewing the camshaft lobe and base heights should permit reuse of the original pushrods if still in good condition. Verify lengths and fit to each valve accordingly.
These are all just thoughts and observations to keep me busy while I wait and wonder until the new parts arrive.
Until that time: Tenny
You're separating piston/rod and block (cylinder bore size/shape or core shift) issues from valvetrain noise, a good move...If the noise is valvetrain related, the new camshaft, lifters and timing chain set will do the trick as long as the valves, seats, valve guides and springs are in good condition. I would install a new or upgrade thrust button as insurance against camshaft walk...I am very interested in your findings after this work!
Moses
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Hi, Brian T...I did a quick search and came up with these sources. They are Scout II suppliers and may have other items you need as well:
https://anythingscout.com/products/hd-drag-link-scout-ii
https://www.ihpartsamerica.com/store/CPT-SII-TIERODDRAGLINK-GP.html
https://dandcextreme.com/product/x-duty-tie-rod-drag-link-set-scout-ii/
These are upgrade parts. The suppliers may have OEM replacement pieces as well. Beyond this, I would try eBay for NOS parts if stock pieces will do.
Keep us posted!
Moses
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Some comments below, Tenny...
3 hours ago, Tenny said:Thanks for all the input on my engine knock Moses.To be more clear on a couple of points, the cam measurements I took where done as follows:
I mic'ed the lobes on the sides to get the base size(all were the same and correct) then from highest point to opposing side(base) to get amount of lift and compared the measurement to the advertised specs of a OEM cam lift .This is where I observed the lack of lift on all lobes,all to much but some twice as much as others.
Then I mic'ed the 4 cam bearings.The surfaces looked wear free as did the cam bearings in the block.The rear one was 2.00" and they increase in dia. .010" per bearing to the front one on the cam which measured 2.030". I've never replaced a camshaft before but thought this made since for removal/installation reasons ???
Then I put V-blocks under the end cam bearings with a .015" shim(half the total difference in their dia.) under the small end V-block to bring the cam center line up even with the .030 larger front bearing.
Smart and needed with the step sizes of the journals...
Then with a dial indicator I first checked the base of each lobe and they where all the same showing no wear. They also have what I think is the correct .001 taper(bigger at the rear of each lobe base)which under normal circumstances would help keep the cam towards the rear.They taper is evident on each lobe base as only the rear 1/3 width of each base is shinny with the front 2/3 showing brownish oil color.
Again, you're thorough, and is accurate...
It's only at the max lift point of each lobe where things get ugly.I even took a file to the worn tip of the worst lobe since I wouldn't be reusing it to see if the case hardened surface had been worn through.It still seemed to be present but must be very thin.
Initial case hardening is typically 0.030"-0.035" for this kind of part. I use Fowler hardness files (a set) to confirm surface hardness in HRC. As you suggest, the case is likely thin on the high wear lobes.
The lifters actually looked and seemed to test OK although I'm replacing them of course.After pulling them from the engine which hadn't been run for 2 days, I couldn't compress any of them.They do have a slight concave base of less then .001" and measure the same height as well looking shinny and pit free.
Lifter bases should be convex or arc'ing outward slightly...When there is a cam-to-lifter lobe issue or a cam goes "flat", the damage is typically concave or dished wear into the lifter base.
The knocking noise I could recreate was by prying the cam rearward.It only moves about 3/16" front to back so I'm sure it not hitting the rear plug.The noise is when the back side of the cam gear hits the block with a little force,more then it should while running in normal conditions.I'm hoping the sudden back and forth motion of the cam that I observed while rotating the crank is causing this abnormal front to back force, enough to cause a knock.???
Worth mentioning, Manley, Cloyes, CompCams and others make aftermarket spring loaded thrust buttons. (Buick V6 engines have a spring loaded, rotating button with the stock timing sprocket and camshaft.) Since the slight taper of the lobes ramp toward the rear of the camshaft, the natural tendency, as you note, would be to push the camshaft rearward and also to rotate the lifters. There is no thrust plate (between the cam sprocket and block) on a Jeep 2.5L, so the cam gear/sprocket rides against the block face. The pressure is not high enough to wear the block's face significantly. This is more to keep the sprockets aligned.
I am replacing the snubber and tensioner even though the ones I removed show very little wear.The chain needed about 1/2 of the tensioner's total travel to keep it tight and the snubber has hardly been touched.
Just a wise precaution here...
The cam gears do look a little sharper at the points then I've seen on other engines but will know better when I can compare them to the new cloyes set coming.
Cloyes is a wise choice and proven quality...A double roller chain is superior and provides far more accurate valve timing when wanted...
It is strange how the engine went from "no bad noises" for the first few start ups then to a slight knock only at idle that went away when warmed up to where it is now.
This does raise concerns. How did you flush this engine and with what agent? Is there a possibility that the flushing compound provided too little protection between the lifters and cam lobes? How long did the flush go on? Could the lifters have worn into the lobes during this flush?
My other concern is spark timing and fuel trim/injector flow...I actually invested in an injector cleaning and testing machine to rule out uneven or erratic injector flow rate concerns when tuning and troubleshooting EFI engines. I bought the Autool CT200 for around $400 at the time on eBay. This has proven smart for accurate diagnostics and troubleshooting. Again, a good way to separate mechanical issues from fuel-and-spark management issues. Here's the machine: https://4wdmechanix.com/jeep-4-0l-ignition-tune-up-and-injector-cleaning/.
Have you run a fuel rail pressure and fuel flow volume test on this engine and chassis? Are there any check lights? Although I weigh Jeep OBD-II MIL readings and DTCs with caution, they can be a place to start. A good scan tool will provide clearer findings.
It did seem to be worse after using a quality engine oil flush as directed and then changing the oil and filter to Rotella T-5 15W-40. I've read others have had some success doing this but not me.I also used seafoam in the gas and through the throttle body as directed but noticed no change.Runs real good though.
I use SeaFoam for the SUR&R FIC903 and 203 cleaning processes. This is good for on-the-engine but is short of testing the flow rate/volume of the injectors. Here's an FIC203 cleaning on the engine, which did cure knocking as described. Carbon build-up on the piston crowns can contribute to knock, especially when running 87-octane Brand-X gasoline without anti-knock or cleaning additives.
It always had the rattle/clatter when letting off the throttle going downhill. It reminds me of a rattle that a little 48 CJ-2A had that I used to have when pushing the clutch on it to shift but I knew it had a bad throw out bearing.My noise now is from the engine and goes back to the knock when I push the clutch, allowing the engine to idle.
It's possible the two different noises are two different reasons.
Sounds like it...As I've hinted, If you have access to a quality scan tool that can stream and capture live data while driving, it would be useful to observe the engine sensor functions while this knock occurs. Determine whether or not fuel-and-spark timing management is involved.
If the engine still knocks after the cam,lifters,chain,gears and distributor replacement, I'll spend more time checking for other causes.If nothing is found then I'll remove the engine and hone it, install new pistons and anything else that doesn't look right.
I would do a borescope peek in the cylinders to see if there is much carbon buildup on the piston crowns or combustion chambers. These engines work hard, and carbon knock can be a factor. Consider, too, that the piston loads are higher under deceleration/compression braking. This can create piston rocking.
Consider checking the valve spring heights and seat pressures. (If necessary, you can use an air hold and carefully remove valve springs with the head still in place.) Inspect for guide/stem clearance issues or possible valve seating noises. (A full inspection of seats and valve faces would require cylinder head removal.) Also check for exhaust back pressure issues if the problem persists.
This little Jeep was a worthy project that needed saving.It looks and drives real good and I plan to sell it so the noise has got to be found at all costs.
I'll get back with results after the cam install as soon as it gets here.
Sounds good, Tenny...Moses
Thanks again: Tenny
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Tenny...Here is some fodder for your other post/reply:
On 7/1/2022 at 6:39 AM, Tenny said:I haven't had much interest in this topic yet but I thought I'd go ahead with a update anyways.
Since I found no reason for the knocking I was hear from the crank related parts of my engine, I decided to remove the camshaft and try to figure out what is causing it to move back and forth when rotating the crank from below.I couldn't believe this is normal.
The lifters look and test fine but the cam doesn't look so good.I work in a machine shop so can accurately measure for wear of the lobes.according to the specs of a OEM camshaft,I found that 3 of the lobes are worn to the point that they've lost .022 " of lift and the rest between that and .012 ". I also think I found the reason the cam was walking back and forth while rotating.
Perfect approach! This is significant lobe wear...
2 lobes(#8 & 6)are worn opposite of the way they should be with a .001" taper that would force the cam forward against the button inside the cover.This shows to be the case because both the cam gear bolt and button inside the timing cover show wear.
Then the front 2 lobes(#1 & 2) are worn but still maintain a .001" taper" that would force the cam back to the rear.I read that all the lobes are ground with a .001" taper to keep the camshaft in place. Does anyone know if this is true? It makes sense from the measurements I took at the lobe bases where there isn't any wearing.Each lobe has a .001" taper front to rear (bigger @ the rear) which would cause the lifters to spin and gently encourage the cam to run back where the gear contacts the block acting as a thrust washer. All the other(4) lobes are worn flat with no taper at all just holding the cam neutral.
This would stand to reason, and I'm sure your measurements are accurate. Unlike the AMC inline sixes, including the 4.0L, the 4-cylinder engines require the timing cover button/thrust. There must be an engineering phenomenon around the camshaft wanting to walk forward on the four-cylinder engine. The 4.0L and 2.5L are otherwise similar with many interchangeable parts. The valve spring load phasing could be a factor with the four-cylinder engines and camshaft walk. Buick V6 engines also require a thrust button.
Importantly, let's consider the relationship between the lifter bases and the lobes. The lifters, though called "flat tappet", do not have flat bases. The bases are convex. So much so that the psi load between the lifter base and the lobe surface is the highest load point anywhere in the engine...I would check the lifter bases. If they are flat (not convex), you have located a problem.
From the wear you detected at the lobes (presumably wear measured from the centerline of the camshaft to the lifter peaks), the camshaft and lifter bases are worn substantially. This could create noise and also valve clearance issues—which you could have confirmed with a CompCams or similar gauge while the engine was fully assembled (just the valve cover removed). Also, lifter bleed down is always a concern; this increases valve clearance and makes tappet noise.
When looking at the cam and the position of these tapered lobes, it makes since that the cam would walk back and forth while turning under the pressure of the valve springs, which would be greatest when the lobe pushes the lifter up.
Yes, given your findings, this would make sense...
As the cam turns, starting @ TDC.# 8 lobe pushes the cam forward.Shortly after,the next lobe to push a lifter up is # 6 lobe which is also the lobe with the wrong taper. Then all of the 4 other lobes to push lifters up in sequence are the ones that are just worn flat, not causing the cam to move front or back.Then when the cam reaches 180 degrees of it's rotation,along comes #1 and a few degrees later # 2 lobes pushing their lifters up(having the proper taper) forcing the cam rearward back against the block where it should be.I believe(and surely hope) this is the knock I could hear when the engine was running.As I'd mention in my first post, I can get a similar knock when prying the cam rearward when it was still in the engine.
Could well be...The loose thrust button would be a contributing factor, allowing the lifter base to "grind off" the taper on the lobe. If so, you should be able to get accurate lobe height measurements at the region outside (fore and aft) the lifter base's contact zone—unless the lifter base is flattened from wear and has no convex shape. In that case, the lifter base could be contacting the entire lobe surface. From your machinist's perspective, imagine the lifter base acting like a cutting tool, flattening the lobe(s) as the camshaft walked back and forth. There may be an outer margin to that lobe wear area unless the lifter's base contacts and sweeps the entire lobe.
I do have a new camshaft and lifters ordered with a complete timing chain/gear set.I already have new rockers and push rods.Even if this cam swap doesn't cure the knock problem,it needed replacing anyways.I'm blaming the use of zinc free oil for the last half of the Jeeps life for causing the camshaft wear on an other wise good engine.
Fully agree with each of your points...Flat tappet cams suffer woefully from no zinc. As I noted, the lifter base-to-lobe load is extreme. (I have 'eighties Sealed Power literature noting a 200,000-plus psi load between the apex of the convex lifter base and lobe.) A roller lifter camshaft is significantly less stress on the lobes even when running higher valve spring pressure rates. The roller distributes the load over parallel, much wider surfaces.
I am very interested in whether this "cures" the knocking. And yes, you have every reason to replace the camshaft, lifters and timing set regardless of the conclusion.
I'm posting all of this as my "theory" now to convince myself it is my knock problem and will update the actual results once I get the engine running again.I haven't seen any other situations where a worn camshaft was the culprit of a engine knock so I remain skeptical.
Let's not be skeptical yet. Your findings are insightful. Engines get these parts renewed during a rebuild, so the shop or DIY builder can always blame the pistons or some other source for the noise. You're taking the time to isolate the problem. This will be telling.
Assuming that you do not have significant carbon atop the pistons or in the combustion chambers (carbon being unusual for any EFI engine), the remaining possibility, considering the depth of your work to date, would be the unseen piston skirts. The coatings on these pistons are known to wear off, but you checked for skirt wear in the correct way. Cylinder taper would be unusual, too; you could peek look inside the cylinders with a borescope and look for wear and cross hatch...Piston skirts would be a consistent noise and rattle under throttle tip-in or load, not intermittently. (A loose pin makes a distinct, consistent double-rap noise under slight tip-in.) Piston noise, typically, would diminish as the engine warms and the piston(s) expand.
It will be interesting to see whether the decel knocking/noise goes away with the camshaft, lifter and timing chain set renewal...Are you doing the chain guide snubber and spring tensioner, too? They wear and can be a trouble source, throw off valve timing and allow the chain to rub the timing cover...We shall see!
I'm still looking for any info,advice or feedback from anyone that has thoughts and knowledge of the problem of knocking Jeeps.
On a bright note, if your thorough measurements and insights around camshaft wear and thrust movement do pan out, you have provided a real service to owners vexed with the Jeep engine knocking issue. I, for one, look forward to your findings. My 4.0L engine's intermittent idle "knocking" has not progressed or caused an issue in more than 50K miles.
The 4.0L's noise is at idle only and not consistent. (As for deceleration engine noise on a grade, there is none, but this is an automatic transmission XJ Cherokee). Now that you've done this thought-provoking footwork, I would look closer at my camshaft/lifter wear and valve clearances. The camshaft could be floating, or lobe wear could be at the core of this issue. Before becoming a "knock", there was an occasional, subtle tappet-type noise. As a point of interest, and not surprisingly, the noise emanated from the area in line with the distributor...Moses
Thank:Tenny
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Hi, Tenny! Thanks for the very thoughtful assessment of the 2.5L noise. I'll add my two-cents with red comments below:
On 6/27/2022 at 6:16 PM, Tenny said:Hi Moses:
I've researched dozens of these knocking, rattling and ticking Jeep engine cases but after checking mine for similar problems/fixes I haven't found a viable cause to repair.
I started the restoration of a 2000 TJ SE with a blown 2.5(threw a rod out the oil pan).I took on the project after finding a "good" 2.5 with complete running gear from another TJ with rusted frame, no tub.The gentleman I bought it from claimed it ran good with 80k but the frame rust was no longer repairable so he put the tub on another TJ w/4.0 and a rusty tub.
Before installing the good engine, I checked static, cold compression which was 175 psi +/- 10 lbs. I thought this to be good since the engine had not run for over a year.
Good preliminary step...
Everything I checked or replace on the engine indicated it was a sound engine w/ 80k. Once installed in the now restored Jeep,it started right up but had a bad skip on at least 1 cylinder.
I was just about to remove 1 plug wire at a time but the skip went away and it ran good w/ a constant 50+ psi oil pressure hot or cold.I figured maybe a stuck injector or just air in the fuel system caused the skip for the first couple minutes.
I didn't hear any noticeable ticks or knocks for the first several times I started and ran it but when I was about ready to take it out for the first test drive,I noticed a slight knock had developed @ idle only.As soon as I cracked the throttle it went away but came right back @ idle.It was also very present going down hill using the engine to hold me back(5 spd) but was very quiet at idle once warmed up.
I continued to drive the Jeep for 250 back road miles but the knocking got louder @ idle and didn't quiet down as much once up to temp and it still rattles under compression braking
I've tried some of the suggested fixes including sea foam and marvel mystery in oil.I also used a good oil flush as directed and changed the oil to a thicker Rotella T-5 (15w-40) oil.It seemed like that only made things worse.Now it sounds real good and quiet at cold start but begins to knock within 20-30 seconds.
Common enough symptoms...
I used a stethascope and listened all over, under and around the engine, including the dist.,timing chain cover and oil pan.I thought the noise was loudest under the valve cover but also on shallow end of pan.I thought no oil on that end might account for that.Just listening to it run with the hood up made me think it was a top end valve lifter/rocker issue.
I removed the valve cover and everything looked good and tight cold.Then I fired it up and ran it til it started knocking and shut it down for a recheck.Everything still looked good and tight and then with the engine was running and knocking, I put pressure on each rocker which made no difference to the knock.There is plenty of oil coming up the push rods and they all spin while the engine is running although a few spin slower then others. I'd already bought new the rockers and push rods hoping that was the problem so I replaced them.Of course that didn't help.
I then removed the oil pan thinking I'd find a loose piston skirt to bore situation but I couldn't get a .002 feeler in while holding the piston to one side all the way down in the bore on any of them.If one slapped I think they all would since they are all the same and that's not the noise I hear
This was a very good step...
I removed the rod bearings to inspect and they look new, perfect and tight.
I checked for piston pin wear while the bearings where out and everything is tight.I have no excessive or noticeable crank end play.
After removing the timing chain cover,I saw the chain is tight with the adjuster that shows little wear.
The only things I've found is I do need a new distributor as mine has some gear wear and a lot of side play at the rotor end.The gear on the cam looks fine though.
Interesting note on the rotor lateral movement...
Also I removed the plugs to make turning the engine from under easier and I noticed the cam will move forward and rearward(end play) aprox 3/16" a couple times with every revolution of the crank.
After removing the chain cover I can see that the thrust button on it is shinny as is the center of the cam gear retaining bolt.While turning the engine with the cover off, I can hold the cam from coming forward with my hand with out much pressure.
MAJOR INSIGHT.
I was sure the end play on the cam would be my problem but everything else looks normal.
So to recap my symptoms:
(1) Engine is quiet on start up but knocks within 20-30 seconds.
(2) knocking increases with engine RPM's but unsure if 1/2 speed(cam related) or 1 to 1 with RPM(crank related).Going to check that when I get it running again.
continues to knock but not as load after warm up.
(3) Rattles while going down hill, engine braking
(4) Removed 1 plug wire at a time while running doesn't effect knock.
(5) Engines runs and starts perfect at all times with great oil pressure and normal coolant temp.
(6) I am running regular gas but it just doesn't sound like spark knock plus it increases with RPM while going downhill, foot off the throttle.
I would run a live fuel trim readout to monitor the A/F compensation under these various conditions. Each of your knock phases correlates to maximum timing advance, higher manifold vacuum and no engine load. A scan of the MAP and other related devices could be helpful/insightful. There is no knock sensor to retard timing under a knock condition, PCM presets are supposed to adjust sufficiently.
Once I get it going again I will shut the engine off going down hill with the clutch out in gear to see if it knocks then.Not sure what that would tell me but just curious.
I still have the engine apart hoping to find something but will put it together for more testing up top,(lifters) if need be.Also I'll install a new dist. after I've started it to see if it still knock.I'm sure it will.
Curious about any gains with the distributor. Our 4.0L's noise was at the vicinity of the distributor, but #5 cylinder is slightly lower on compression. Did not replace the distributor, and that noise has gone on for 50K miles.
The one thing that I'm uncertain about is how the cam walks forward to the thrust button then back as I turn it over.It does make a knocking sound when I pry it rearward all the way with pressure.
Does this sound normal?
When you pry, is the knock coming from the camshaft hitting the rear plug in the block? (This would be excess movement, obviously.) Where does the knock emanate from? If movement is severe enough, is a lobe hitting the adjacent lifter?
Thanks for enduring this read.I've been about 3 weeks trying different things and collecting as much info as I could before asking for help.
No problem, actually intriguing and not uncommon. Any insight for others is of value. I'll respond to your second/follow-up reply below...I would emphasize that the use of our Autel MT906TS scan tool has broadened my perspective. I was bent on finding mechanical errors, which is sensible and your approach, but the scan tool takes live data into consideration. You can observe changes in sensor readings, timing, fuel trim, MAP, etc., etc., while monitoring the knock. These changes can point to or help pinpoint causes unrelated to clear mechanical woes. Enlightening when used properly. Do you have access to a more sophisticated scan tool?
Tenny
See reply to your follow-up below...Moses
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jordan89oak...I do value tools, and apparently you do, too! You stepped up and did the right thing here! Failsafe and accurate. Good choice, you'll do plenty of axles to pay for the tool, right? I trust you still have enough left over for tuition...
Once you have the pinion depth set correctly, the rest is straightforward as I described. The beauty of this tool set (which mimics the OEM Miller/SPX set I have in my box) is that you will not have to guess about whether the pinion head markings are valid or not.
Exciting...Yea!
Moses
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Hi, Liam Angus...I waited to see whether others would reply here...The Heim joints could be a source of play, however, the first place I would look is the steering gear. You have braced and trussed and made a real effort to eliminate play, so let's address the steering gear itself.
First-off, you need to be certain the steering gear is on its center position with the front wheels pointed straight ahead. If not, the gear will be off-center and in a play zone when driving the vehicle straight. (There will be play and/or wander.) Once this is determined, I would verify whether there is play at the gear's cross-shaft/rack teeth. Engine off, you can do this by holding the pitman arm in one hand and rocking/rotating (back and forth with slight pressure) the steering stub shaft at the top of the gear. The gear must be on its center when you perform this test. Also check for stub shaft spline movement and steering shaft coupler or joint wear, including the upper/tilt steering wheel mechanism.
If there is noticeable backlash as you rock the stub shaft (engine turned off, gear static), the gear (cross-shaft) is out of adjustment or has excessive wear. A dramatic amount of play denotes wear, which can be bearings or tooth mesh that require rebuilding the gear. Slight amount of play requires an over-center adjustment of the gear. (First distinguish whether the stub shaft bearing is loose by rocking the shaft laterally/radially.) The drag link should be disconnected at the pitman arm for any adjustment. There should be no play at the over-center position, the factory spec (look it up and follow the specification) is a very slight amount of drag over center. If there are signs of wear, remove the gear and rebuild it on the bench, following the factory steps.
I did a lengthy video on rebuilding a typical Saginaw 800 steering gear. If your steering gear is loose or shows ominous wear, and you want more insight into the gear's construction and rebuilding steps, review this video. Use a factory workshop manual for the actual steps to adjust or rebuild your specific gear. Do this job on the workbench in a clean and dry environment:
You know what bump steer is. If your steering linkage is not too sloped (looks fairly level at vehicle static height) and the track bar is adjusted right with the correct axle "arc" when the axle moves up and down or articulates, you should have very little or no bump steer. This is different than "play" at the steering gear or steering linkage. Be sure your knuckle ball-joints are in good condition and preloaded (adjusters set properly) to the factory adjustment for this Dana 44 axle. Looseness at the ball-joints can create play or wander, too; however, you're describing play or movement at the steering wheel, which is typically not knuckle looseness.
Another consideration is the caster angle at the front wheels, which has more to do with wander or not returning to center after road curves than the play you experience at the steering wheel. Caster does help stabilize the steering. You need ample caster angle (positive degrees), the amount determined by your Dana 44 axle source. GM straight axle trucks have a lot of positive caster angle. I can help clarify the setting if you have a year/model prototype for the D44 beam axle.
Check this out and let us know what you find...
Moses
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jordan89oak...Innovative work on the throttle bracket, good to see your progress...The setup bearings and a pinion depth tool will help considerably during the ring-and-pinion install. Pinion depth is the most important setting; the other settings fall into place.
If the current gears are correctly set up, note the pinion gear head markings. With a Dana pinion mark chart, you will have a reliable means for adjusting the pinion depth between the current gear set and the new gears. In your case, the pinion markings will help compare or confirm your settings when you use the setup bearings and pinion depth gauge.
Which pinion depth gauge did you choose? Please share how well it works. The ring and pinion tooth pattern is your final check. Follow the guidelines carefully for pinion bearing preload. If you use a crush sleeve, do not crush the sleeve too far and over-tighten the bearing preload. (You cannot back the pinion nut off to loosen preload.) If you over-crush the sleeve, install another new sleeve and set the pinion preload again.
The crush sleeve must put up high resistance at the backside of the pinion bearing to prevent the pinion nut from backing loose. Go slowly, in small increments, when crushing the new sleeve with the new pinion nut; come up to the correct bearing preload without over-tightening.
This is not an issue with a shimmed outer pinion bearing as long as the pinion nut gets tightened to full torque specification and the pinion bearing preload remains correct. On shimmed pinion preload axles, you have the pinion depth shim(s) and also the pinion bearing preload shim stack. On a crush sleeve setup, you only have the pinion depth shim stack and use a new crush sleeve and a new pinion nut (with Loctite for insurance) to set the pinion bearing preload.
Keep us posted!
Moses
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zidodcigalah...Always great to see your posts, and this one especially. First off, you should be very pleased with the "success story" around this A904 build. Now tested enough to tell, the transmission has obviously been built correctly.
Your candid sharing of the "rabbit holes" and trouble areas in this build are very helpful to others. You likely saved first-time builders a lot of headache and have steered them toward the details that need close attention...Thanks for taking the time to do this.
One approach I take with transmissions, especially those that have not been disassembled before, is to note the parts fit-up imprints during disassembly. (This must be done before running the parts through a pressure washer or cleaning them.) You can see the relationship of parts and their orientation. On parts with peculiar alignment, marking the castings or pieces with a light pin punch mark can help. This should be done away from precision or machined mating surfaces and without leaving punch mark material that can slough off...Another approach, which you describe, would be taking photos during teardown to use for a parts orientation/reference during reassembly.
Your close attention to chamfered edges, seal direction(s) and other concerns is why you had success with the build. Thanks much for sharing your experience. Many get discouraged on their first automatic transmission build and never do another one. You persevered, looked for possible pitfalls, and ultimately built a reliable transmission. You also discovered the built-in shift quirks and details around the late A904 downshifts. This helps you distinguish "normal" shift behavior from trouble.
You're up the learning curve on automatic transmissions. The good news is a successful build and upgrade of your A904. More importantly, you have familiarized yourself with the A904 transmission build (plus the 30RH/32RH units) and now know way more about automatic transmission rebuilding!
Looking forward to your posts...
Moses
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Captain Charleston...Please post the photos again, they're not visible. I'd like to see them and will respond promptly!
Moses
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Good job, Mr Rex! The collapsible spacer ("crush sleeve") is a means for quickly attaining the right preload without repeatedly changing shims to get the right preload. It's an initial (factory) time saver rather than any gain in design. GM axles went to the crush sleeve. Spicer maintained the traditional shimming method for years. More recently, Spicer/Dana adopted the crush sleeve.
When I do shim type axle work, I use a set of "dummy bearings" modified to slide with finger pressure onto and off the pinion shaft. If the installer is fortunate enough and the axle has never been serviced, the original Dana/Spicer pinion head markings provide a reliable gauge for determining the shim stack height for the new (marked) pinion gear. (See my article at https://4wdmechanix.com/moses-ludels-4wd-mechanix-magazine-moses-ludel-rebuilds-the-jeep-yj-wrangler-dana-30-front-axle/.) I trial check the pinion depth (ring-and-pinion mesh/centerline) by temporarily installing the carrier/ring gear and doing a pinion depth tooth contact pattern with the inner shim stack in place.
Once the inner bearing shim stack is correct, I press a new inner pinion bearing onto the pinion shaft with the shims in place. With the carrier/ring gear removed, I use the outer trial bearing and shims to set the pinion bearing preload. Once I have the right bearing preload shim stack, I can pull the new outer bearing into position on the pinion shaft and confirm the preload with the pinion nut secured to torque specification. I then install the carrier/ring gear and verify the combined carrier and pinion preload total. A tooth contact pattern test while setting the ring-and-pinion backlash completes the process.
There are "tool" versions of my dummy bearings for shops that do a lot of axle work on Spicer and other shim-type axles. I use take-off bearings in top condition/tolerance for making my tools, sanding out the inner bearing race evenly with a sanding drum in my drill press, carefully removing just enough material to allow finger pressing the bearing onto the pinion shaft.
The crush sleeve has two purposes: 1) set the preload to specification, and 2) provide resistance to keep the pinion nut tight. The main concern with the crush sleeve is to tighten ever so slowly and not collapse the spacer too much. If the preload becomes too tight (in-lb setting), a new crush sleeve must be installed. The builder cannot simply back off the nut to loosen the setting. For safety, the crush sleeve must continually apply pressure to the backside of the pinion nut; otherwise the pinion nut can back itself loose even with threadlocker on the threads. If the sleeve is over-crushed with the nut backed off, there isn't enough force against the pinion nut.
Yukon likely makes the crush sleeve stouter because most installers use an air gun. Air guns now put out over 400 ft-lbs torque. A softer crush sleeve will collapse too quickly and over-tighten the setting. The higher resistance helps offset air gun torque and the risk of ruining a new crush sleeve.
Moses
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Back to my earlier comments, I like the 2G series carburetor. Since the late sixties, my carburetor kits have been NAPA/Echlin. I looked up your 2G kit, it's NAPA/Echlin #CRB 25478. This is for a stock carburetor. If the tag is still present (good luck considering age), confirm the kit number. Shouldn't be an issue, though, these 2G kits typically have broad coverage.
There are many other sources for the kit. Retail on the Echlin kit is $36.39 plus tax.
Moses
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Interesting, Monty. As long as you have substantial grounds between the 1) battery to engine, 2) engine to body/firewall, 3) body to frame and, optionally, 4) the engine to frame, you should be good. The negative side of 12VDC needs to carry the same amperage as the power side. Factory grounds are "just enough" to do this. Years ago, when I ran frequency welders on my 4x4s, I used 1/0 welding grade ground cables between the four points described.
Moses
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The hanger would be a great work area...Good luck on that one!
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Welcome back to the project, 1ajs!...School went well? This project is ambitious, and it looks like you're back in the thick of it. Can't make out the bracket under the floor pan (passenger side). Is it a cab/floor pan support? Is there a cushion mount there?
Amazing that you can find new/replacement floor pans. Great that you found someone capable of welding them in properly. The transmission tunnel has perforation rust on the driver's side. Will the new floor pan reach into that area?
Regarding the rear floor bushings under the seat frame, could that be part of the original factory jack mount?
Glad you found the Line Ticket source. Your research there could prove interesting.
Moses
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Awizard4x4...Couldn't view the google photos, but I get the gist of your concern. Yes, in this approach, the bearing cup stick-out determines the amount of preload on the bearing. And yes, the backing plate becomes a flexing, preload mechanism with this design.
These manufacturers have apparently determined that if the backing plate flexes 0.020" to 0.060", the bearings will be preload properly. The amount of backing plate tension determines the amount of preload on the bearing...This is not the OEM method, which calls for axle shaft endplay.
To your question, the outer seal/plate cannot be fitted outboard of the dust cover, the bolts would need to be longer, the plate would be unstable, and the dust cover would not withstand the axle shaft lateral/axial pressure. Hardware would likely loosen, and the dust cover would likely collapse. As you have discovered, the dust shield is just stamped "tin" and not as stout as the seal plate.
Below is a stock layout for the AMC 20/CJ axle shaft, seal and dust cover. Note that the shim(s) have a center bore that will slide over the bearing cup. The backing plate would normally fit between #5 and #6 parts. The shim(s) #5 would space the backing plate outward from the axle flange to allow the bearing cup to move outward as well. In this case, the cup's stick-out from the axle flange establishes an end play at the tapered bearing. The shim(s) set the bearing and axle shaft end play or lateral/axial float. The backing plate acts as a stop for the bearing cup, but the brake backing plate does not flex and tension the cup.
With your one piece axle shaft design, if like the TEN approach, there is no bearing end play. (See the link I provided Greg to the TEN PDF instructions with a diagram.) Instead, the bearing cups are preloaded against the bearing cones. These manufacturers use the brake backing plate as a flexing "tensioner" to press the bearing cups inward.
The amount of backing plate flex determines the amount of preload pressure. In the TEN approach, they have determined that 0.020"-0.060" is the amount of preload (backing plate flex/tension) that they want for these tapered roller bearings. This is a different approach altogether from OEM axle shaft bearings with factory end play:
I trust this helps clarify...Let us know.
Moses
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Aspenyj...I would not recommend a changeover from your AX5 manual transmission to an automatic. First-off, the YJ 2.5L TBI engine (1987-90) did not offer the 904/999 (30RH) Chrysler transmission, which became an option with the 1994 models. The '94 has the MPI 2.5L four (1991 up), which offers more performance. Your TBI engine's bellhousing pattern is the same, but the electric system and wiring harnesses for the MPI engine are different. The bellhousing pattern for 4.0L and 4.2L sixes is not the same as the four-cylinder engines. An inline six automatic transmission will not mate to your 2.5L engine.
At the very least, you would need to find a '94 or '95 YJ 2.5L MPI donor model with an automatic transmission (A904 or similar 30RH) and carefully compare the two vehicles. Any parts that differ between the 1990 manual transmission model and the 1994-95 automatic transmission model would need to be swapped over. This gets very busy, including the radiator, chassis and underhood wiring, shift linkage and many other details.
While the automatic transmission changeover is possible and got me thinking about the necessary parts, the amount of labor and footwork to get the parts and install them would simply not be worth it. If you contemplate doing the work yourself, there is no task that requires more articulation or awkward positioning that a transmission change-out. To sublet that work to a shop would be considerable hourly labor plus the cost of donor vehicle parts.
It comes down to "can it be done" versus "is it worth doing?" I would opt for the latter and suggest that the transmission change-over is not worth doing. Technically, a 1994-up four-cylinder transmission might mate to your engine and transfer case, but that's where the similarities end.
My suggestion, especially in this relatively hot used vehicle market, would be to sell the 1990 YJ intact and find a 1991-up six-cylinder model (4.0L) with the automatic. There were many 1991-95 YJs and 1997-2006 TJs with the automatic transmission option. (If you prefer a carbureted engine, the 1987-90 4.2L six-cylinder YJ was available with an automatic transmission option. I would opt for the '91-up 4.0L MPI engine, which is reliable and less trouble than the TBI fours or a carbureted 4.2L.) The difference between the selling price for the 1990 model and the cost of a 1991-up 4.0L replacement vehicle would likely be equal to the labor and donor parts cost to convert your YJ to an automatic transmission—if that were even practical.
Moses
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Mike, the 11" x 2" drum brakes are still popular; discs are not as expensive as they once were. Yes, you do have choices.
If the 9" brakes are satisfactory, just beware that if you cross a stream or deeper puddle, wet 9" brakes do require drying before they work adequately. Dragging the brakes for a bit will dry them out quicker. You'll figure this out. For now, enjoy the Jeep!
I haven't seen the master cylinder. Is this the classic 1960-62 Chevy truck single port unit that serves both the brakes and hydraulic clutch? Or did you go with a dual master cylinder with separate front and rear brake ports?
Moses
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Mike, this is a highly reliable and functional finished product. Your family can be safe and have fun. The body tub and liner material, despite the cost, is an investment. Given your climate and the history of the OEM body tubs with regard to rust, you have virtually eliminated that issue with your liner choice. The liner acts as a seam sealer, which is otherwise very difficult to achieve on a new tub with conventional automotive sealer/caulk, primer and paint.
The powertrain is built to last for decades. The steering system is more modern than the OE. This is now the vehicle you can consider a permanent member of the family "fleet".
Great work and thanks for the forthright message to others about "planning" ahead with a project. It does save time, cost and unnecessary labor. You will amortize your investment in this CJ3B many times over, it's a classic Jeep with sensible modern upgrades.
Where did you wind up with the brakes? Did you keep the OE 9" brakes? Do you need an 11" x 2" drum brake upgrade with a dual master cylinder? Is the master cylinder for your swinging pedals a dual type? In the day, the 11" x 2" upgrade was ample, disc brakes are unnecessary unless you plan a lot of stream fording.
The original 11" Jeep conversions were postwar (1949-up) Lincoln 11" backing plates and brake drums, which had the Jeep's 5-on-5-1/2" bolt circle. The backing plates were center cut to fit over the front wheel hubs. The later aftermarket kits mimic the Lincoln backing plates and drums with common wheel cylinders. If you do the conversion, just make sure your master cylinder (bore diameter and stroke) will displace enough fluid for the larger wheel cylinders.
Moses
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Hi, dynodave...The best source for your task is always a factory service manual or Mopar Parts Manual. The PDF below is excerpted from a 2005 TJ Wrangler service manual, which I happen to have in my library. This is the level of information you will get from an FSM, and they are available in original Mopar print form or convenient CD reprint form, which is actually easier to navigate with the bookmarking:
2005 TJ Wrangler Rear Parking Brakes.pdf
Here are two pages from a Mopar factory parts manual that cover the rear parking brakes (rear disc models like yours):
2005 TJ Wrangler Rear Parking Brakes.pdf
See if this is the info you need. If you like this level of information, a good source for copyrighted CD versions of the factory service manual (Mopar) is Bishko at eBay. They seem reliable, I have recommended some of their books. To make the point, I get an FSM for any vehicle we buy or that I work on to a serious degree.
Let us know whether this solves your issue...
Moses
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Good plan to test the condition of the 400, Speed...The 292 was a C/K20-30 and higher series engine. Heads were induction hardened in the early seventies, sometimes you can tell whether they were factory induction hardened by the flame treatment. After thorough cleaning and blasting if necessary, a Rockwell C test would confirm cast hardness.
Standard practice for years, ever since the unleaded fuel era, has been replacement of exhaust valve seats with hardened steel seats—regardless of the cylinder head vintage. Also, be aware of the cast-in later induction system ("manifold") and no opportunity to swap tri-power. You'll need the earlier cylinder head if you want to follow through with the tri-power. See whether Clifford or Offenhauser still offers 292 intake manifolds. Clifford likes to use a single four-barrel. Tri-power might be available elsewhere, as there is a market among hot rod and street truck builders of 230/250/292 inline GM sixes.
HEI is a good idea in any case. 1975-up should handle the ignition. There is interchange with 230/250 distributors, which would increase the available sources. Aftermarket HEI distributors are available, basically a knock-off of the '75-up units.
Exhaust seats are the only real concern, some argue that doesn't make a difference. I disagree. If the seats are not induction hardened from GM, I install hard seats to avoid valve seat recession. Be aware, too, that high temp cleaning processes by reman shops (procedures like a heat oven to burn off carbon) can "normalize" (soften to original casting hardness) or essentially anneal hard cast seats. If in doubt about a head's history, install hard steel exhaust seats.
As for a Detroit Locker, not a bad idea for a 2WD truck. Know the handling/rear steer concerns with the Detroit. On pavement, the truck will not handle like an open diff or even an "automatic" (multiplate) locker. As for me installing your locker, sorry, that's not in the cards. My projects take up all available space, the "fleet" now three vehicles that require routine service. The latest is a 2003 VW Jetta TDI 1.9L (ALH) diesel A4 platform. It's a one-owner car in excellent original condition that gets 45-plus mpg on the highway. That's something only our motorcycles have done. Toss in the 'Road Ready' YouTube channel episodes that I'm producing, and my shop is busy, busy, busy.
Moses
Another Knocking 2.5L Jeep TJ Four-Cylinder Engine
in Jeep® YJ Wrangler, TJ Wrangler and LJ Wrangler
Posted
Tenny...You clearly found the knocking source...See my comments below...Congrats!