Moses Ludel
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Posts posted by Moses Ludel
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David, you can have your OEM shock rebuilt. There are a number of shops that will rebuild and re-valve/tailor an OEM shock. This is probably the most cost effective approach, and you can even have the shop dial-in the shock for your body weight/height and riding style/venue at Burundi.
With any dirt or dual-sport OEM shock, there is the impulse to replace the unit or condemn its function. Assuming the original shock is not damaged, and yours is in this case, it really pays to follow the factory guidelines for adjusting the OEM shock. Most often, you can find the ride, dampening, rebound and sag that work best for your riding—all within the range of the OEM shock adjustments and fluid choices. We do this with auto/truck seats and suspension/shocks all the time, it's the same with adjustable OEM motorcycle shocks and forks.
As for shock rebuilders, you may even find an "exchange" unit or take-off OEM shock. Whether you want a premier source for parts to rebuild the rear shock yourself or plan to sublet the unit for rebuilding, I suggest that you begin with Race Tech. Here is the page for the Honda XR650R offerings, both parts and labor, for the front forks and the rear shock/spring (scroll down the listing). I plugged in the 2001 model year, presumably 2000-2007 Honda XR650Rs are virtually the same:
http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/1/Honda/XR650R/2001
Trust this helps. There are also other mail-order sources online for seals and rebuild kits if you don't want to ship the rear shock to the U.S.A. Might want to disassemble the OEM shock (by the book, please, don't turn a spring loose at your home garage!) and inspect the damage. This could be just a seal problem if the tolerances are still okay with no scoring. If you need info on safe disassembly and rebuilding, just ask.
Moses
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Hi, David! After looking at the parts schematic for the European rear fender and brace, I understand how clearance might be an issue, more likely with the fender and related parts than the swing arm...If you're comfortable with the load capacity and speed rating (should be way more than enough, right?), I believe you'll be very satisfied with the Michelin T63 dual-sport tire choice. And yes, the price of these tires is amazingly reasonable!
Mileage, according to anecdotal comments across the internet, is quite impressive for a DOT asphalt/dirt tire. Most other make dirt/highway DOT tires last 2,500 miles, apparently. Michelin T63 riders are often getting twice that mileage. We shall see. I will be embellishing my tire changing equipment for friendlier tire changes regardless. The XR650R, even if these tires only last 3,500-4,000 miles, will be getting regular change outs. The tires will last a lot longer if I back out of the throttle a bit on dirt!
Riders need to be conscious that a DOT approved highway and off-road tire will not be ideal for either environment. The purpose-built tires for either highway or dirt riding will always prevail. You have a pavement racing background and know that for Moto GP or Superbike road courses, tires get picked trackside on the basis of asphalt composition, dry pavement versus rain and even the corner layout!
You won't have that degree of refinement in a tire that's expected to survive on dirt and rough textured, sometimes rocky terrain, then be expected to suffice on the highway without beating the rider up—like the Michelin Cross AC10 and other knobby tires promise to do despite their superior traction and handling off-pavement. I'm sure this is clear from your riding experience. My punchline is to treat the traction and handling with respect until you become familiar with what the T63, or any other tire design, will do specifically at your operating venue and for your riding style. We'll compare notes on the T63s as we gain experience at challenges like wet asphalt and tighter cornering on dirt.
Fullchoke is off and riding as we write! We're a gathering group of dual-sport motorcyclists and dirt XR650R riders with a variety of climates, altitudes and adventures to share and compare. I'm pleased with your excitement about the Honda XR650R restoration. This cycle will pay back on the first ride, promising to put a smile on your face!
Moses
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Here's a place for fellow member Biggman100 to comment! He's explored the differences between the V-6 and V-8 models, and we have discussed changeovers. I have the factory parts listings and pictures through 2008, which will apply here if it comes down to an actual need for specific part numbers.
I'm always focused on the chassis and wiring differences, PCMs, the harnesses and such. My first fling at this kind of swap would be lining up your Dakota alongside a V-8 model. The factory option is the 4.7L V-8, so this goes even further with comparisons between the 4.7L V-8 and 5.7L hemi engines. If it gets down to individual parts, I can provide Ram 1500 comparisons between the 4.7L and 5.7L applications.
This can be done, it's a question of how many parts and how much effort to bring the engine, transmission, transfer case and drivelines to spec. You mention drivelines, and this is the least of it, as a good driveline shop can bridge any length, mounting or joint issues. The gray area is usually transfer case type and shift linkage, powertrain mounts, speedometer and VSS issues and that sort of thing.
Let's see what Biggman100 has to say, and I'll share from my angle, too. I'll drop a note to Biggman100.
Moses
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So, what did you decide for the main jet? If all seems well, check the plug after a hot, hard pull (without going to the ER burn ward from mishandling a scorching spark plug!). You'll find that opening the throttle is something enjoyable on this bike, just don't wheelie the bike through the neighborhood! On that note, power does go to the ground with the correct seating position, and opening the throttle does not have to result in a wheel stand despite the many YouTube examples of wheelies on XR650Rs. If the throttle transitions feel strong and smooth, and the spark plug looks okay for coloration, go for it...If any have questions about spark plug coloration, I'd be pleased to respond. Just open up a new topic, and we'll discuss it!
As for the stock XR650R seat, yes, it is hard, especially after an XR350R or XR500R seat from the day! This is the newer, spare seat design, a weight and mass saving gesture, in addition to keeping the seat height as low as possible on this already tall chassis. As for replacements, a number of aftermarket sources offer seats (Acerbis for one) that boast improved riding position and cushioning. We've discussed leg length and inseam, and this can quickly get compromised by thicker seat padding. Touch-and-go here!
Moses
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I suffered firsthand from leaving fuel in the two carburetors of the XR350R. The only solution was removal and careful rebuilding of both carburetors. The "slow"/pilot jet on the primary carburetor was not just clogged, it was ruined. As most know, it is virtually impossible to clear a solidly clogged brass jet. Jeweler's drills, welding tip cleaners, a stiff wire, you name it, most attempts like this result in the enlargement or oval shaping of the soft orifice.
The cleaning attempt went nowhere, and fortunately, jets crossed over to a Kawasaki application with a much less costly (under $8 including shipping and tax) replacement Keihin jet, purchased through the local Kawasaki source rather than Honda. The overhaul gaskets came from Honda.
Lesson well taken. I now shut off the petcock and run the bowls as dry as possible, bike upright, before stopping the engine. This drops the fuel below the pilot and other passageways. So far, long periods of setting have not seen the problem return. I do try to ride the bike to avoid stale fuel, otherwise draining the tank and refilling with fresh gasoline.
As for overfilling the crankcase and creating blowby and valve seal and guide seepage, that's an excellent point to share, Greg! My XR500R has a dry sump system, and overfilling issues are a bit less likely to happen, though they could. Worth investigating on this machine. It only ran 30 minutes when I made the blue smoke judgment call. Was I too hasty in condemning rings and such? Maybe the valve guide seals are bad or damaged from overfilling the oiling system. The crankcase did have oil seepage, but that, too, could be from excess pressure caused by overfilling.
At this point, an engine teardown is warranted, the crankcase seepage won't disappear by simply dropping the oil level. The guide seals are likely ruined from the bike setting up for years now.
Moses
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It all began with a passion for desert enduro bikes. After a dozen viewings of "Dust to Glory!", my bike of choice was the Honda XR650R liquid cooled thumper. Finding the right used machine, rebuilding the engine top-end with machine work by L.A. Sleeve, dialing the tune, after months of waiting, I finally mounted the beast and headed into the desert. An hour of dirt riding validated my choice, for my kind of riding, this is the perfect motorcycle.
Fresh top-end rebuild with a Hot Cams Stage 1 camshaft, the magazine's XR650R is ready for the desert! With an estimated 55 horsepower and 50 lb-ft torque in this form, the bike will meet every performance demand.
My original goal with this motorcycle was a reliable, highly capable motorcycle for HD video filming at off-road events and travel-adventure rides. And now I faced a significant obstacle: Where would I put all the camping and video gear? Was a purpose built enduro motorcycle able to perform double duty like this?
Michelin T63 and Cross AC10 tires were the first step toward taming the desert beast and making it more on-highway capable. The DOT approved T63 tires offered the best trade-off for both dirt and asphalt use.
The internet is rife with examples of Honda XR650R motorcycles morphing into supermotards and dual-sports. In fact, despite its reputation as the ultimate Baja racer and "off-highway" desert bike status across North America, the Honda XR650R reached much of the global market in semi-street form. Draped in highway amenities and trim for Europe and Australia (detuned substantially for the Down Under market, making it all the more street worthy), the XR650R has the ability to serve incredibly well as a dual-sport. My cycle was purchased in just that form, the previous owner was Texas based and had added a Baja Designs conversion kit and DOT tires. The bike was on- and off-highway legal, and I readily registered, plated and titled the motorcycle as such at Nevada.
Off pavement, the Michelin T63 tires work well. DOT for the highway, they deliver on asphalt, too. Here, I test the tires at Nevada's wild horse country and later on a curving ribbon of asphalt. The Honda XR650R dual-sport conversion can deliver in both worlds!
Here I was with a dual-sport platform, so why not go the next step and add the necessary cargo racks and luggage? As a highway rider as well as a dirt guy, I instinctively switched to the Michelin T63 tires for an on-highway improvement. Tested on dirt and the highway, the tires were as close a compromise as practical for both asphalt and Nevada's graded gravel roads and alkaline dust single-tracks.
The next step was a leap, the choice of TCI Products' Sequoia and Borrego racks, along with TCI's skid plate and engine guard protection. Installed, there was no going back. The Johnny Campbell/Steve Hengeveld Honda A-Team profile vanished. Was this okay? Well, truthfully, I did pause for a moment. After years of selling myself on the idea of a Baja-bred desert enduro bike, to see these, admittedly, well-crafted and precisely fitted saddle bag and tail racks, hanging off the back end of a race-bred dirt motorcycle, was certainly a "different" look!
This video gear and motorcycle camping gear need a place to ride! The Nelson-Rigg luggage and TCI Products racks have provided an outstanding solution. The package transformed the Honda XR650R desert enduro bike into a dual-sport that rivals the "big" adventure-touring bikes—at half the curb weight and nimble enough for single-track and fast-track desert!
Once I added the tastefully designed and rugged Nelson-Rigg luggage to these quality racks, I was able to exhale. In fact, as I fitted the luggage onto the stable and sturdy TCI racks, following closely with the video cam to catch the nooks and crannies of the bags, it became clear that this is one good looking, highly versatile and rugged package!
I'm thrilled with the utility of these racks and bags. Moreover, the cycle has the best of both worlds: Capability off-road yet ample suitability for short—and even long—highway riding!
Click on the links to see the tire testing, the TCI Products rack and engine protection installations, and my choice in Nelson-Rigg luggage. You'll not only be impressed, if you've been indecisive about converting your pristine enduro bike into a dual-sport, this might very well tip the scale!
Moses
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Pjcrews...I followed your link and made a copy of the electronically controlled fan. When you want to attach photos, click on the "More Reply Options" below the editor box (right side). You'll then have access to the "Attach Files" button (left side below editor box). Your files (.jpg photo, PDF, whatever) will upload once selected. You can then post the image or file wherever you place the cursor in the editor box. It will become clearer as you try this function.
I also made a PDF of our fan clutch service procedures, which you likely have memorized by now! One of the key notes in the service guide is reference to DTC codes. If you disconnect the electronic fan clutch, that circuit will likely send a DTC code and trigger an engine check light or "MIL". This could be a nuisance if you were to attempt a clutch swap with a thermal viscous (non-electronic) fan clutch. Here is the factory (2005-2006 coverage) manual section devoted to the 5.9L diesel's electronically controlled fan:
Electronic Fan Clutch Ram Diesel.pdf
Derale and others make fan clutches for the Ram Cummins diesel 5.9L. However, the Derale mechanical (thermostatic) fan listing is for 2000-2003 model year. You might call the Derale tech line. Here's the website address: http://www.derale.com. Ask about retrofitting a fully mechanical clutch unit like their thermostatic type, and clarify what to do with the existing wiring and plugs regarding DTC codes. Derale likely has been over this road with other Cummins owners.
At Summit Racing, here is the listing for the Derale fan clutch for the 5.9L diesel (presumed to be 2000-2003 models): http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-22616/overview/. There is also a Hayden electronic fan clutch available at Summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hda-3281/applications/. This #3281, according to the Hayden website catalog, is for models up to 2004. '05 up models like ours use the Hayden #3282. You might want to see if the Hayden #3282 fan clutch (designated as an OE replacement) has better wiring and reinforcement of the wires. Here's the Hayden catalog, see the Dodge Ram 3500 fan clutch listings:
http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/2013_HaydenCatalog_FINAL.pdf
Here is a great PDF description of various fan clutch types and designs, plus troubleshooting, also from Hayden:
Overall, you'll need to work around the DTC codes if you decide to opt for a fully mechanical (thermostatic, viscous) fan clutch. If you stay with the electronic fan clutch, look into the Hayden unit to see if it has wiring improvements over the Mopar unit. (It may be identical, so confirm before buying!)
If you're stuck with the OEM type, electronically controlled fan clutch unit, consider fabricating a sleeve mount or harness clamps that will relocate and secure the wiring far enough away from the flexing fan. If the harness can be moved that much, this could solve the issue of wires getting chafed by the flexing fan.
As a last consideration, Derale and others make replacement fans that might be more rigid or offset slightly in their mounting location. Maybe the correct fan could ensure or provide clearance to the wires if the fan hits water. Any fan must also have sufficient clearance to the radiator core and shroud. Here is the Derale catalog download for fans. You can make some comparisons:
http://derale.com/images/pdfs/Derale-Catalog-2014.pdf
These are places to start...You have an unusual issue here. Clearly, Chrysler did not expect these trucks to do much water fording. Let us know what works here, happy to provide more ideas and suggestions.
Moses
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Hi, Pjcrews, and thanks for posting this topic. There may be an aftermarket non-electric (viscous or thermostatically controlled) replacement fan clutch that would eliminate the issue. We can look into that solution.
Meanwhile, can you post a few pictures of the issue? I'd like to see what's happening here. There may be a way to improve the wiring layout. Waterproofing in itself is a challenge. I'd like to see how this tube or the wiring harness winds up interfering with the fan clutch and the A/C wiring.
Moses
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Welcome to the forums! To answer your question on changing over brakes, I'd begin by saying the best practice is to line up a donor vehicle that is original, and use the layout and parts as a prototype. Typically, you will change the master cylinder and booster assembly, the linkage at the brake pedal, the proportioning/combination valve and other pieces that may differ. Compare brake lines and hoses, too.
I begin by studying the parts and part numbers in a factory parts manual, and here I can help. Below is a PDF with not only part numbers from Mopar but also the layout schematics for your parts. All pages are relevant, you're comparing individual parts and model/equipment applications. Zoom into the images and text for finer details, an advantage with a PDF and bitmap images.
You can do some preliminary work by comparing the parts differences between the manual braking system and the power braking system. From there, determine which parts must be used in the conversion:
Jeep CJ Manual Versus Power Brake Parts.pdf
As a footnote, be aware of the brake bleeding procedure for these later CJs. You need to follow the factory approach and shuttle the valve properly at the proportioning/combination valve. Without doing so, you will not be able to bleed brakes effectively.
This is a place to start...Looking forward to your involvement at the forums!
Moses
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stevecherokee, welcome to the forums!
With 306K miles on the XJ's OE transmission, if this has the original Mopar/NV lube still in it, the cost of Mopar oil would seem negligible. The NV3550 can be as touchy as the AX15 in terms of synchronizer fussiness and finding the "perfect" oil. Redline may have recommendations, and that's an option. Also, GM used the 3500 transmission in S-trucks and light pickup powertrains. There is a GM lube, I used it in a Sonoma Z71 4x4 pickup with an NV3500. You might price compare the GM versus Mopar oil.
Everyone can benefit from a lubricant company's viewpoint. I researched and found the Valvoline oil catalog for manual transmission lubes and oils. Take the time to review the listings. (Jeep is listed under "Jeep" not Chrysler.)
First, stevecherokee is correct with the Mopar recommended lube (#4874464), and according to Mopar, there is no substitute. According to Valvoline, there is:
Valvoline Transmission Lube Catalog.pdf
Straight from Valvoline, a supplier to many OEMs:
General Motors & Chrysler: Valvoline Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid
• High performance manual transmission lubricant designed to meet the extreme demands of passenger car manual transmission gearbox applications
• Enhanced performance in both low and high temperature operating conditions
• Excellent wear protection under high loads and extreme pressure
• Resistance to oxidation and remains stable under extreme pressures
• Exceptional anti-foam performance for added protection
Recommended for General Motors and Chrysler vehicles including GM part numbers 12345349, 12377916 and 12345577 as well as Chrysler part number 4874464
Valvoline Lube Part Number: 811095
It's easy to get lost in this maze. I cut through to a source that private labels for OEs. You may prefer Amsoil or Redline, and if there is an assurance that the synchros will work with their lubes, go for it. For me, the cost effective first choice would likely be Valvoline #811095 lube. Price it!
Moses
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Doesn't the XR500R have a manual (handlebar) compression release lever, too. I know we have the kick start cable decompressor on each of our vintage air-cooled bikes. Thought you could at least release compression with a handlebar hand lever on the XR500R.
Eastern Oregon is great, much like the high desert at many parts of northern Nevada. We'll share trails over time, there are scores of great riding areas, one of the closer ones is High Rock Canyon above the Black Rock Desert, an original section of the Southern Route on the Oregon Trail. My good friend at Halsey/Brownsville has ridden at several areas you discuss. Kirk has dirt bikes and a Jeep TJ Wrangler Rubicon. They do the lakes around the Mt. Bachelor Area, too.
Your mention of Tillamook Forest and Trask brings back a flood of memories. Friends at Warn Industries did the Jolly Jeepers run to the coast annually, I covered that for OFF-ROAD Magazine years ago. Wonderful coastal ranges at Oregon, always terrific when they open to the ocean. Sand Lake and other dune areas have been great photo backdrops, too. Warn films ad footage at the coast a lot.
The ISDT has always been a benchmark for me. We have hare-and-hound but not the Trask Mountain wooded stuff, although the Wagner Cup Trials have been held at Donner Ranch in the Sierra just 70 miles from us. We watched a few years ago and even my wife, a non-motorcyclist, got totally into the trials riding and competition! Of course, there's the Rubicon Trail, which I cover on the ground mostly, filming events like the Wheelers for the Wounded. In the mid-'90s, I wanted to take the XR350R over that trail, never found the time. Today, I would not subject any of my bikes to that level of abuse, the trail has gotten progressively worse over the years. 35"-37" tires are the "norm" for the Rubicon Trail 4x4s.
I did know that our XR500R engines have their differences. 1984 has the XR500R at its peak just prior to the intro of the XR600R. Many regard the XR600R as the same league as the XR650R. I'm very tactful with a local ex-racer who has run the Virginia City Grand Prix many times. He still swears by his XR600R bikes. I believe the XR650R takes it to the next level, as you will discover shortly, Greg!
I'd like to see you through the XR350R overheat issue. The troubleshooting list I provided will be helpful. These bikes were not known for overheating, although air cooling, 9.5:1 compression and only 23 horsepower can create a conflict quickly! There is a big difference between the XR350R and the XR500R. I show my respect when riding the 350, although it has been ridden, for sure! That bike definitely has a place in our stables.
Moses
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Hello, bbevrotte! Welcome to the forums...Since you didn't get an immediate response, here's my take. First off, according to Mopar parts references, the upper control arm with ball-joint is a single, unit-piece replacement item: Mopar Part #52090206AF or the current supercedure. If that's true of the aftermarket, you're replacing the arm as a whole and not just the ball-joint. Look into this and let us know. If the ball-joint is a separate replacement item now, continue as I describe below...Here is the parts schematic (zoom into the page for detail) that covers your WK Grand Cherokee:
WK Jeep Grand Cherokee Front Suspension Parts.pdf
If you review the lower control arm ball-joint steps at the top of this topic, you will see that the task for the upper ball-joint would be the same through Step #4. First, I would make sure that you have the C-press and tools. (For occasional use, Harbor Freight has a nice knock-off kit for both a C-press with sleeves and a 4x4 additional sleeve kit to round out these tools. The 4x4 kit is more for beam axle ball joints, though you might find the sleeves helpful.) Prepare for removing the control arm but don't do so unless you cannot get the C-press to fit safely on the ball-joint of the upper control arm.
After loosening the upper ball-joint stud, you should have decent range of movement at the upper control arm. If enough range to get the C-press into position with the control arm still attached, simply remove and install the ball-joint. If not, either remove the upper control arm or, if somehow easier, first remove the knuckle and half-shaft.
A General Ball-Joint Warning: Always be clear whether a ball-joint is a press-in type or a thread-in type. Do not force a threaded ball-joint loose with a press or C-press, you will ruin the control arm or beam axle! Use the proper size and type socket on a threaded ball-joint. Click here to see an example of a threaded ball-joint application for a Chrysler passenger car or IFS light truck. At the lower part of the article, you'll see the OTC ball-joint removal socket. Note that the ball-joint will have a hex-head or similar means for rotating the joint with a specialty socket. If there is simply a shoulder that accepts a press sleeve, with no flats or slots, the ball-joint is a press-in type.
Let us know how this works. If you encounter any difficulty, post here, and we'll walk through the installation. If this turns out a straightforward project, please share your findings and results. Let us know your Grand Cherokee suspension is safely back together!
I'm quite puzzled why we're replacing ball-joints on these '05-up Grand Cherokees already. The beam axle WJ steering knuckle ball-joints would last for an incredibly long while, like other beam axle parts. What's with the ball-joints on these later IFS models? Is your vehicle modified/lifted? Oversize tires? How many miles on the odometer now? Driven off-road a lot?
Moses
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Thanks for the insights, Greg! Our favorite places compass still bears strongly NW. I'm a U of O grad (W '80), and we lived a total of nine years at Eugene/Springfield and Oakridge, two stints, 1977-82 and 1990-94. I contributed the 'Drive Time' column to the Oregonian from 1993-97. Know both sides of the Cascade Range, can remember Bend when the population was only 10,000! Did Search and Rescue with the 4x4 club out of Oakridge, we dispatched to the coastal range and rivers, Willamette Pass and Waldo Lake.
We'll compare notes on our riding interests and venues. I have two good Oregon friends who ride on- and off-highway, one with an XR650R dual-sport conversion, he's based at Portland and works at Warn. The other friend from Oakridge days is now at Brownsville/Halsey and riding a WR250 Yamaha to work at Cascade Pulp—he's settled down since his Honda CR period at Oakridge!
I recall the handlebars for the Victor 441, they did have a good feel. That bike was an absolute blast and proved the point: You're always riding the "best" bike ever, because you need to be in the game on whatever's beneath the seat of your pants! The BSA thumpers felt great for that era. In the desert and scrambles, we didn't know any better. Brit bikes were racing the Baja! In hindsight, the minimal front fork travel was horrible, I can still hear the forks bottoming! Vertical rear coil-shock suspension, by today's standards, was also terrible. I get a kick out of "On Any Sunday", watching the four-stroke bikes tail dance across the desert, the riders bobbing up and down with the rear suspension...First breakthrough was cantilever shocks, then the mono-shocks and our Honda Pro-Link—such a monumental gain, thrusting the bike forward instead of straight up and down!
The seat height is high on the XR650R. I'm a 32" inseam, and it's a stretch. I'm back at the gym now, consistently after the magazine had me parked in front of the computer for longer than I'd like to acknowledge...I, too, discovered some height shrinkage. Stood 5' 11" at my peak, a recent check has me barely 5' 10". According to most, some of this is age, though denial has me thinking that by pushing away from the computer, working out more and riding the dirt bikes, I can stretch back to 5' 11"—if not, at least I'll be healthier and happier! Will update on the effort!
As for the exhaust and uncorking your XR650R, the Power-Up Kit difference is in the tailpipe tip. If yours looks like mine, you're fine. Not sure whether David's Euro model comes with the Honda Power-Up tip, I'd like his feedback.
Regarding my Hot Cams Stage 1 camshaft (not a Honda HRC camshaft, which is more like the Stage 2 Hot Cams), I went with the Stage 1 for two reasons: 1) When researching, and my concerns are exactly like yours, I discovered that the grind is actually for low end to mid-range performance gains, not mid- to top-end gains, and 2) as I noted, the auto-decompressor on the OEM camshaft did not thrill me. The Stage 1 camshaft eliminates the auto-decompressor system. (In the magazine illustrations and videos, you can see the parts differences.)
In a nutshell, I am thrilled with my engine's performance, very stable idle and immediate, massive torque from throttle tip-in to redline. I don't over-rev this engine and shift well below redline by instinct, there's absolutely no need to wring out this engine, it enjoys being upshifted and laying down torque in the next gear up. (A sixth gear would be nice, I do like the stock 14/48 sprocket arrangement for my multiple use riding but find myself, amusingly, often reaching for a sixth gear, conditioning from the earlier XR experience.) If you're okay with using the OEM manual decompressor lever for starting the bike, I highly recommend this camshaft if you want a change. Is it a "must" over stock, and should you go to lengths and change out the camshaft? Probably not—unless you develop the same disdain I did for the auto-decompressor setup.
Your XRs from the State of Oregon sound intriguing, what a find! The account of how little they needed to get going again does draw attention to Honda reliability. I have the '84 XR500R under a tarp (dry climate here at northern Nevada, fortunately!) and earmarked for restoration. It's completely intact and quite solid. Our youngest son bought the bike over the phone from a San Diego County owner several years ago. (This is the son who just bought the 2003 Honda XR400R with 134 original, documented odometer miles!) He rode the '84 XR500R about 20 minutes with blue smoke coming out the tailpipe and parked it.
I took the XR500R off his hands for what he paid for the machine, well worth it. This front and rear disc brake model is easily restorable, and as a seasoned professional motorcycle wrench, I would expect to rebuild any used 1984 motorcycle's engine. (Similarly, our fellow forum member Forman rebuilt his Kawasaki KLR engine.) For those of us who ride the desert, these XRs are great machines. Objectively, a vintage XR200R, XR250R or XR350R makes a bit better tight and twisty bike for single track trailing. For a desert playa or sagebrush 'Hare-and-Hound', however, either is the XR350R or XR500R is in its element. So is the XR600R, XR650R or any of the Honda CRF models.
Where do you ride at Eastern Oregon, Greg? Do you get to the coast, too? Let's open up a topic at our single-track travel forum: http://forums.4wdmechanix.com/forum/35-places-you-have-been/! Would be great to add some photos and get David's moto view of Burundi, too!
Moses -
At the forums Garage Photo Gallery, member "FullChoke" (Greg) responded to my photo of the magazine's 1984 Honda XR350R motorcycle. We have identical '84 XR350R motorcycles. Greg's cycle has engine heat-up problems, and this raises the issue of how to keep any air-cooled dirt or dual-sport motorcycle engine running cool enough. I'll begin with sharing our exchange at the Garage (below), followed by pointers on how to keep an air-cooled dirt or dual-sport engine from overheating.
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My comments at the Garage Photo Gallery:
The Honda XR350R cycle has been in our stable since the late '90s. Rick Sorensen, an A&E aircraft professional, had set up this dirt motorcycle for desert enduro riding. Rick's attention to detail, tuning and appropriate upgrades has made this one of our favorite dirt motorcycles to date.
When new, the 1984 XR350R came with many advanced features, including Pro-Link rear suspension, a disc front brake and the four-valve, twin-intake and exhaust thumper engine design. The performance, dependability and flexibility of this engine has been a constant source of satisfaction. Under the most challenging conditions, including crawls through milder "rock gardens", the cycle and four-valve engine have delivered tractor-like stability.
In other online forums, there is much talk about the "failure prone" and "problematic" dual carburetors on the XR350R and XR500R engines. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I have rebuilt these carburetors and set them up to factory specifications, adjusting linkage and cables accordingly. The dual 26mm Keihin carburetors are stable and flexible enough to get by with the same jetting from Johnson Valley (King of the Hammers) to timberline at Nevada's high mountain ranges.
Note: I jet for our base at 4500 feet elevation. The carburetors tolerate short rides to 8,000 feet and drops to 2,500 feet. That's very flexible, and though I would re-jet for extended riding at either of these high or low altitude points, these carburetors will "function" over that range. Simply put, I'm not fiddling constantly with the carburetors.
The transition to the secondary carburetor is seamless, and by making sure there are no vacuum leaks, the tuning stays rock steady. Sure, EFI delivers more power and refined tuning, but these twin Keihin 26mm carburetors do work well and can be adjusted, or even re-jetted with care and patience, when you're 120 miles from a paved road.
As for handling, I always ride the motorcycle that's under me. Sure, a CRF450 or XR650R could "run circles" around these earlier XRs, but that's not what I'm riding here. The XR350R can provide a great ride when handled like, not surprisingly, a tuned XR350R and not a CRF450. This logic applies to road cycles, too. I never rode our Honda Gold Wing or the BMW K1100LT like I did my two 1969 BSA motorcycles, the lightweight 650 Lightning or the 750 Rocket III. When I hopped on my youngest son's Yamaha YZF600R6 a few years ago, that was a different story as well.
For this XR350R workhorse, I'm considering a dual-sport conversion kit from Baja Designs to enable highway access. We have an '84 XR500R waiting in the wings for restoration, another dual-sport candidate. Each of these bikes would weigh under 300 pounds converted, much nimbler on dirt than a KLR or BMW in any form. Nevada's new OHV permit program makes it just as sensible to opt for a DOT-standards conversion and license ("plate") an XR for dual-sport use. We carry insurance either way.
On that note, expect details shortly on what direction this takes. If the dual-sport conversion route, I'll cover the steps at the magazine in an HD video 'how-to'.
MosesGreg's comments at the Garage Photo Gallery:fullchoke
Yesterday, 09:22 PMThe1984 xr350r has a history of running hot and burning up. I think that was blamed on the new head design and the 2 carb system. Possibly the overheating could benefit with richer jetting. I know mine gets hotter faster than any bike I've owned. I haven't run it much and when it is used it has been a buddy's bike, usually run fairly slow. When compared to other bikes running over the same terrain it is noticeably hotter. For that reason I run a full synthetic oil, hoping for more protection with a higher boiling point.
The front disc brake is a very nice feature, best thing about a very good bike.
Greg*******************************************************************How-to troubleshoot an air-cooled motorcycle engine overheating problem:As for overheating, let's start with a systematic troubleshoot. First and obviously, the engine cooling fins must be clean with sufficient air flow. Also, a four-stroke engine does not like to idle for extended periods in still air. This even applies to liquid cooled dirt and dual-sport motorcycle engines. (There are constant internet discussions about overheat, even on models like the liquid cooled XR650R and others.) Two-strokes with premix fuel have less tendency to overheat, though heat can still be an issue.When we ride extensively in the desert during hotter weather, I'm always conscious of air flow. After a good high speed streak or even picking through basaltic rock flows, my Honda XR350R remains "reasonably" cool. I'll let the engine idle for just a moment to help stabilize temperatures before shutting it off. We do crawl in stand-up-on-the-pegs type challenges, one location in particular is at high altitude. This engine has never reached critical temperatures. Your use of synthetic oil can help, too.Running cool at high altitudes is in part what you suggest. Proper jetting for sea level to 4,500 feet, then running the engine at 7,000 feet, makes the fuel mixture richer. I've never fouled a spark plug or experienced blubbering or unstable operation with these richer mixtures. In my experience, jetting is not that sensitive on these four-strokes, they are way more flexible than many give credit. Main jetted for best performance at 2,500-5,000 feet (our typical high desert country), this same engine has run flawlessly from 2,300 feet on the floor at Johnson Valley, CA to nearly 7,000 feet—without a re-jet. Of course, if the engine were operated consistently at 6,000 feet or higher, I would re-jet.Keep the jetting within a reasonable range. Read the spark plug color after a hard, open throttle run and prompt shutdown! That's the main jet's realm. If anything, jet slightly rich. In current jetting, my XR350R can run at sea level without burning a hole in the piston. Again, if I were to run the length of Baja, I would jet for sea level to 4,000 feet. Never jet so rich that fuel can wash oil off the cylinder walls nor so lean that the valves and piston are at risk! Learn to read the spark plug.Often overlooked is the importance of proper valve clearance. Valves adjusted too tight will cause engine overheating and also lower compression. Unseated valves lead to valve face burnout and seat damage, too. Adjust valves to specification, and also adjust the decompression lever and kick start cables. This is a big part of maintenance on the XR350R, the XR500R and similar Honda dirt bike models. The auto-decompression camshaft design eliminates the kick starter cable on later XRs. However, the manual (handlebar) decompression lever adjustment remains very important on every one of these models.On the XR models with dual carburetors, folks need to get over the idea that these engines never run right. Actually, this myth is helpful to those of us who value the dual-carburetor era, Pro-Link models—you can buy them at bargain prices! A common mistake is for the carburetors to be sync'd improperly. There is a very clear adjustment here, which I can share if necessary. Be aware that these carburetors do not open simultaneously! The linkage is actually "progressive", with a lag stage as the primary carburetor provides a smooth idle and light tip-in air/fuel flow. Then the secondary carburetor (which has no idle mix screw) comes into play. Think of this like an automotive engine with a progressive four-barrel carburetor or multiple carburetors. Adjust the cables and the staged throttle linkage to specification. These engines will start readily and run fantastically if the jetting, float level and needle settings are correct!General footnote: Current ethanol fuel wreaks havoc on motorcycle carburetor passageways. Do not leave the bike parked for long periods with fuel in the carburetor bowls. Shut the petcock, and with the bike upright, burn fuel until the engine stalls. Fuel standing in the bowl will clog jets, it did mine. The immediate symptom is an unstable idle and poor low throttle response. (I ended up rebuilding both carburetors after letting the cycle sit for too long with "winterized" and "Ethanol" mix fuel in the tank and bowls!) Use a fuel stabilizer additive, this can help for shorter storage. Long term, drain the fuel tank and the carburetor(s). Without stabilizer, fuel can become stale and worthless in months, depending upon the climate.Air/fuel flow and ratio are a critical part of air-cooled engine performance. Keep the air filter clean and oiled properly, whether stock type or aftermarket. A clogged cleaner element will make the engine run rich or stall, much like leaving the choke on. Also, when considering a lean fuel mixture, always take air leaks into account. Air leaks on the manifold side of the carburetor(s), between the head and carburetors, can lean out the fuel mixture. Check for leaks at flanges and junctions. Using a can of spray carburetor cleaner or WD-40, spray a fine mist at flanges with the engine idling. This can quickly turn up an air leak as the engine speed flares up or changes. Avoid spraying at high heat areas that can ignite the spray!Once you've worked through the intake side, make sure there are no exhaust restrictions. I have a "tunable" SuperTrapp exhaust end that is set up with the right number of discs for proper backpressure. I periodically remove the disks and gently bead blast the carbon away to keep tuning accurate. Improper exhaust backpressure or clogging can be a major source of overheat on a motorcycle engine.After fuel mixture/jetting, carburetor sync'ing, air leaks and exhaust restrictions and tune, there is the ignition spark and timing. Of course, spark must be adequate, and the spark plug should be the correct heat range, especially on an air-cooled engine. A "hotter" plug can be serious trouble if not in place for a good reason. Hotter spark than the stock Honda ignition (in good condition) is rarely necessary.Note: The compression ratio is higher, so you also need to run better octane fuel, especially at lower elevations. This may not be true for high altitude. I can run 87-octane in the XR350R at 4,000-8,000 feet because the atmosphere effectively lowers the compression ratio. I am not as flexible with the Honda XR650R at 10:1 compression and a bore size within 0.060" of a 327 or 350 cubic inch Chevy V-8! If you're at a lower elevation with high compression, spring for 91-92 octane fuel. This helps prevent detonation/ping, overheat and stress to the engine. For an XR500R, XR600R or XR650R, I would run 91-92 octane all the time.The last item on our checklist is spark timing. Either retarded or over-advanced, spark timing error can kill a motorcycle engine. Check the spark timing from idle to full-advance at speed. Make sure the timing advance is set properly. You can test with a conventional timing light or a light with built-in advance, this is not rocket science. I can help cast light on the procedure and expected results. With an electronic ignition, spark timing either works or it does not. If a motorcycle is old enough to have a mechanical spark advance mechanism, like our BSAs of yore, a sticking or defective spark advance mechanism can cause overheating as well as performance problems.Of course, there are overheat causes unrelated to the engine, like too much friction in the gear train or binding brakes (a sticky front or rear brake caliper, brake shoes dragging or warped/defective rotors and drums). Wheel bearing resistance, low tire pressure or chain drag can also overheat an engine. Check for resistance with the motorcycle wheels and tires lifted safely off the ground or floor.This is a place to start, and I am happy to continue this discussion. Glad that FullChoke triggered this topic, that's what these forums are all about!Moses -
Very sensible to be clear here. As you note, valve timing is a big thing with a four-stroke, especially an engine with an overhead camshaft, long chain, a tensioner and a timing sprocket that must align properly. Glad you confirmed!
Looking forward to your success story with this engine. You'll really like the renewed performance, David!
Moses
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David...I looked at the parts diagram, and your under-fender bracket does not attach with the same four bolts as the TCI support bracket. However, you might be able to substitute the TCI Products bracket for your stock EU bracket under the fender. If the TCI part could support the rack, the fender, your taillight and the license bracket, you would have one bracket for all these needs. Do you have the four screw holes in the bike's aluminum frame for the TCI bracket to attach?
It might be possible to use the TCI Products bracket with its four screws going forward into the frame, then add some links from the TCI support to catch the rear of the fender. The only issue would be the height of the fender above the support, the point where I drilled the holes and put the spacers. Even that could be adjusted if necessary. The idea with the TCI under fender support is that it eventually must take a good load.
TCI stated flatly that they regularly place 60 pounds on this kind of rack. There was no weight limit in the literature, and the rack itself would support a considerable amount of weight with no issue. However, considering the four 6mm screws that hold the under-fender support bracket to the bike's frame, I will likely limit my total load to 70 pounds, including the weight of the bags and rack. That weight would be distributed between the two seat bolt points (where I show the rack pivoting) and the brace point where the two through-the-fender screws attach to the under-fender bracket.
I'm happy to take measurements or provide close-up photos if you want to pursue this. The racks and bags are terrific. I had concerns that the aesthetic line of the bike would suffer, losing the spare "Baja enduro racer" look. I quickly got over this with the utility and sleek design of the racks and luggage. The result is a true dual-sport profile that's very functional and at the same time proportionate and attractive. I like it!
Moses
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Hi, fullchoke...We do have a lot in common! Wow, what are the odds, we each had BSA singles and XR350R and 500R models. Each of my air-cooled XRs are 1984 models. We sold the '83 XR200R when our youngest son went to college in 1999 or would otherwise still have it, too. He's coming around to dirt riding again, and we recently found him a buy on a 2003 XR400R, 134 actual miles on the odometer, essentially a brand new bike!
Thanks for your concern about the work I needed to do on the XR650R. The previous owner was quite fair, there was relief for the expenses I encountered, and frankly, I'm now pleased that the top-end rebuild is done. As strong as these bikes run, I'm sure many could be on their last leg and still "feel good". The top engine rebuild with low overall mileage on the bike is good. The places I ride and plan to use the bike, the loads planned, there will be no guesswork about the condition of the engine. I have always done my own engine work, which should not surprise anyone, and the collaboration with L.A. Sleeve Company on the machine work was assurance that I have a fresh and very reliable machine!
As for your wonderful new acquisition, and you will be thrilled before this is done, the guideline I follow is the factory Honda "Power-Up Kit". This is actually tuning the bike to the European and other market standards. I did not pull my tuning specs out of thin air, instead doing my homework and even acquiring a non-North America shop manual copy to verify my findings. The post above with the official carb jetting specs PDF is from the non-N.A. manual.
From this non-U.S. manual, we can glean that the basic engine is exactly the same throughout the world. (I researched the compression, cam timing, ignition and other key features to confirm.) The tune differs in various markets, though. In fact, there is a different carburetor model used in Australia that has a radically smaller main jet (112#). If the PE78D Australian carburetor has the same throat/bore opening and air flow as the PE78C (other export markets other than U.S./N.A), this Australian bike has been severely detuned.
For those curious, the U.S. replacement carburetor is a PE78A. There were originally two non-California (XR650R A) part numbers and one for the California XR650R AC models, each a PE78A type Keihin carburetor. Keep in mind, the U.S./N.A. XR650R was originally for off-highway only use, an enduro motorcycle without street use equipment.
This Australian market bike is actually geared for asphalt highways at 41/15 sprocket gearing and comes with a complement of lighting, directional signals, chain guard and mirrors, more like the XR650L although we can assume there are no other similarities with the air-cooled XR650L model. I'm encouraging an Australian XR650R bike owner to jump in here to confirm that the Down Under XR650R is otherwise a true Honda XR650R. For those curious, here are the model distinctions for Honda XR650R models sold in markets outside the U.S. or North America:
Honda XR650R Markets.bmp Honda Euro and Australian XR650R Models.bmp Honda XR650R Carburetor Tuning.bmp
"Uncorked" is the parts list I've furnished in the above threads at this topic. These part numbers have been available through Honda motorcycle dealerships and online official Honda parts suppliers. The 175 main jet is standard for sea level on this engine everywhere in the world except North America and Australia. The compression ratio of 10:1 justifies the 175 main jet for full performance. That this 649cc engine will run on the 145 (aftermarket), 125 (N.A.) or even the 112 main jet at Australia, is a testimonial to the engine's stamina and flexibility. A 125 or 112 main jet with a carburetor bore like this and 649cc engine displacement, sounds like a piston hole looking for a place to happen!
Like your bike, my engine had a half-baked approach. The restrictors were removed from the air box as per Power-Up guidelines, and the OE manifold was round like your non-California engine. (My bike sold originally in Texas.) The needle-and-seat, the pilot jet and the muffler tip were Power-Up variety, too. For the longest while, I could not imagine why the engine had every Power-Up Kit mod except the 175 main jet. It finally dawned on me that the previous owner may have reinstalled the 125 jet when compression dropped and the engine seemed to run rich. This was from the intake valve damage and loss of compression, not from over-fueling the engine with a 175 main jet at Texas.
Those familiar with my books and journalism know that I do not make assertions that fly in the face of OEM norms. My jetting recommendations are Honda's own, both stone stock applications sold outside the U.S. and the "kit" that was allowable for these bikes as "off-highway" use only. Off-highway or "competition" improvements do not violate EPA and California emissions because the bike is not presumed to be street ridden. (There is a Green and Red sticker program in California, but we'll leave that issue alone.)
Note: There's a jetting chart and comments at http://xr650r.us/jetting/. What you'll discover is that the baseline for the author's chart is a 175 main jet at sea level. He adjusts for both altitude and ambient temperature. His main jet chart goes as high as 182 (sea level at 20 degrees F) and as low as 150 (for 12,000 feet elevation and 100-degrees F if you can find such a place on Earth!). Nowhere does he mention a 148 or smaller main jet. He talks about the HRC and Power-Up parts and also the Stage 1 camshaft that I'm running. His chart includes needle settings for the B53E needle and seat package. There is also commentary about the standard pilot jets versus the "S" pilot jets. The author and I believe that reading spark plug coloration is a sensible backup to any jetting experiments.
So, what you need to do is compare your bike to mine, and that's not difficult. At the magazine's free articles and how-to videos on the XR650R work, and clearly at the highly detailed 54-minute HD video how-to I did on rebuilding the top-engine (a streaming rental at Vimeo), you can readily follow the camcorder and photos as I show the intake manifold, the tailpipe and the unrestricted air box. These parts are easy to spot and compare. Whether you have the N.A. type tailpipe tip or the Power-Up Kit version will be clear. There's considerable size difference in the tailpipe outlet. For a quick comparison, see my coverage of the TCI rack installation. The muffler and tailpipe tip are prominent in the article's photos and the video.
Worth noting, I stayed with the stock air filter box, air filter and flame trap. I tossed out the popular brand aftermarket air filter that could not seal properly at the edges. (You hint of a similar issue, Greg.) I'm now running the OEM Honda replacement parts, including a new flame trap screen, new OEM air filter and a new air box "O-ring" that seals between the black air box and the white side cover's lip. I'm sure many have stories of performance gains and unleashing latent horsepower from aftermarket air filters. I have no desire to periodically replace intake valves and service the cylinder. Nikasil is very tough but can be seriously damaged by fine dirt running constantly through the upper cylinder. Considering our alkaline dust at Nevada, I opted for the stock air filtration system. The engine's performance is excellent, with no signs of air flow restrictions, and I'm good with "stock"!.
We're both very fortunate not to have the California suction valve system and other one-off pieces for the Golden State models. If you have the wherewithal, consider doing a cylinder leakdown test for piece of mind. If you do so and the engine still has the auto-decompression OEM camshaft, make sure you back off the rocker adjusters enough to be certain all four valves are seated with the piston at TDC on the compression stroke. Many try to run a conventional "compression test" on these engines, only to find that compression is a fraction of "normal". An exhaust valve unseating as you kick through with the auto-decompression type camshaft will do just what de-compression is designed to do: release compression to ease cranking!
As I noted in a thread above, the Hot Cams Stage 1 camshaft is a sheer joy. You and I can readily start a thumper with just the hand compression release lever. (I describe my current kick starting technique, which differs some from the B44, but not in principle.) Many seem to like Honda's auto-decompression, I cannot figure why. On top of that, the camshaft's weight with the decompression mechanism is an awful lot of upper valvetrain mass to spin at speed.
Talking about speed, these engines when operated properly, which is to say by taking advantage of the massive low- to mid-range torque (more of both with the Stage 1 camshaft!), do not require redline throttling. We understand this from having pushrod Beezers. I had three of them, each '69s by coincidence, the B44, an A65L and an A75R Rocket III. I actually liked the Lightning 650 twin on the road, it was far less weighty and more nimble than the A75R, although the A75R triple cylinder engine was significantly smoother and did tolerate extended high rpm operation. Gene Romero (Triumph Trident) and Dick Mann (A75R BSA) proved this.
That said, do we plan to reenact "Dust to Glory"? (Watch this streaming from Netflix or rent the DVD, you'll see what an HRC version of the XR650R does for Johnny Campbell, Andy Grider, Steve Hengeveld, Mouse McCoy, the Roberts family team and others.) Our rpm ceiling and riding may not create fuel starvation even with a 145 main jet. An old tuner's trick, you likely know, is to run slightly rich, short of fouling the plug or fuel-washing the cylinder(s). This keeps the upper cylinder cooler. On the Honda XR650R, liquid cooling likely compensates some for the ultra lean mixtures in N.A. carburetors or even the Moose Racing kit. Synthetic oil goes a long way here, too, and so does Nikasil. A friend at Portland shares that just switching to Amsoil on his XR650R made his leg on the exhaust side of the bike substantially cooler. I'd like to test and confirm this. As you crack the throttle, you can instantly feel exhaust heat when the XR650R makes horsepower and BTUs!
What it comes down to is actual air-fuel ratio. I am academic, and if I thought the 172 main jet was risky, I would install an oxy-sensor bung at the appropriate position on the muffler and test with an A/F meter. More traditional testing, like spark plug color after hard acceleration and a quick shut-off, would be equally revealing.
I can tell with my engine that the 172 main jet will work well at our altitude and with the Stage 1 camshaft. If I encounter trouble above 6,500 feet, I might consider a change. Short runs over Ebbetts or Carson Pass would likely not create an issue, I've done this with stock sea level and slightly leaner jetting on many of my motorcycles. And planning for such a trip, I might simply install a hotter spark plug for climbing over the high passes. I'll update on this point.
I look forward to our discussions, Greg, and hearing more about your bikes. Happy to address our 2000 model XR650R motorcycles or the twin-carb XR air-cooled models. Even happy to reminisce about BSA motorcycles...Thanks for joining us here, looking forward to starting new topics and threads!
Moses
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MountainHound...Every day of reliable transportation and four-wheeling is money saved and expenses postponed. Count the "free" miles!
You did the right thing here, if the '79 engine and cylinder head will behave itself and prove predictable and reliable, what the heck, right? The 4.0L head conversion and pushrod relationship sound like the issue. Rocker arms are plentiful and not expensive (new or used). Confirm your pushrod clearances, and go for it!
The later crankshaft stick out and pilot bushing/bearing comment is about the rear or flywheel end. This simply needs to be checked for a match. The front snout is not an issue, a shorter snout can be used with your Mopar EFI pulley by simply installing the longer bolt and special washer (available from HESCO) for this crankshaft conversion. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with your 1979 258, you're past the intake and exhaust manifold issue with the EFI conversion as long as the intake and exhaust ports lined up okay. The Mopar EFI conversion intake manifold is supposed to work with a 258 port arrangement.
Beyond that, if you want to take the guesswork out of the engine, run a leak down test once you know the lifter clearances are correct. We can discuss the results. (You'll find leakdown test pointers at my forum topic post: http://forums.4wdmechanix.com/topic/164-how-to-make-an-inexpensive-engine-cylinder-leak-tester/?hl=%2Bleakdown+%2Btest.) As for metal sweeping through the engine, that's not a good thing, but a string of oil and filter changes could remedy the situation.
Keep us posted!
Moses
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The magazine's YouTube Channel generates a lot of questions, and I encourage viewers to join us at these forums. A current exchange involved a viewer installing a 4.0L Jeep water pump and asking about how to seal the gasket and engine-to-block. This is worthwhile for our forum community, here is the discussion:
Question from Ben D.: Did you use Gasgacinch between the water pump gasket and block? Looooong time ago I remember using RTV. Was it necessary?
My reply: I like Gasgacinch on a cut paper gasket like the water pump. RTV can slough and find its way into the radiator tubes and clog. An even coating of Gasgacinch, on each side of the cut gasket, is wise. Gasgacinch resists coolant, gear lube, engine oil and other automotive fluids. It works well around higher temperature castings. Edelbrock private labels the product for its valve cover and intake manifold gaskets, each a higher heat area of the engine. (Gasgacinch is not for an exhaust manifold where I would use Permatex Ultra-Copper RTV or Permatex Copper Spray-a-Gasket Hi-Temp sealant.) Like many other professionals, I have used Gasgacinch in motorcycle engine work. My recent XR650R Honda project's rocker box to cylinder head seal is one example of a precisely machined, interference fit without a gasket, using only Gasgacinch for that fit. (There is no factory gasket here, just sealant.) This is a good discussion for the magazine's forums at: http://forums.4WDmechanix.com. Join us, Ben!...Moses
I use Gasgacinch on transmission and transfer case cut gaskets, engine oil pan (cork, rubber or composition) gaskets, seal jackets and shells, bolt threads, and many other paper gasket and interference fit locations. It works well when coated evenly, and Gasgacinch has excellent tacking ability for holding an awkward cut paper or cork gasket in place during installation. The YouTube video series on the Jeep Cherokee 4.0L cooling system and water pump work is at: http://www.4wdmechanix.com/How-to-Jeep-4.0L-Water-Pump-and-Serpentine-Belt.html. Gasgacinch is a long time respected sealant and belt dressing, and yes, it can help preserve and quiet belts!
Moses
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Fit is good, David, and I did have an ulterior motive. I knew the bike would carry a significant load over the rear tire, as noted in the coverage on the TCI Products racks, skid protection and Nelson-Rigg luggage. This will be a workhorse, my XR650R, its intended use is an HD video filming platform and access to backcountry and off-road motorsports. I wanted load carrying capacity and a safety margin, slightly at the expense of unsprung weight and such.
The former owner had an even larger tire (a 140!), and that was overkill. In the Michelin tire mounting video, you can see the big tire that came off. I'm very pleased with this new tire size choice for my intended use. And I must say, you're in for a surprise on how easily the XR650R torque can break any tire loose when throttling in dirt. That said, a smaller tire would make me uneasy, a bigger tire a waste.
Swing arm clearance and such is a non-issue. I'm pleased that Michelin offers this tire size and matching tubes.
Moses
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You're right about jet numbers and sizing, David. We're based at 4,300 feet elevation, and most of my riding is between 4,000-7,000 feet elevation. A 175 main jet is for sea level. Typically, you would gradually taper down, proportionately, especially for altitudes above 5,000 foot range. Ambient temperature is also a critical factor, so pay close attention to both altitude and temperature!
I've attached an older Honda workshop recommendation for my 1984 Honda XR350R that should clarify the goals here. (The later manuals are remiss about much of this logic, apparently too busy appeasing exhaust emission regulatory agencies.) 1984 was still an era when getting a dirt motorcycle engine to run right and last a long time held priority. Disregard the XR350R model-specific info, you're interested in the chart and the explanation of how to use the chart and do the math, which is actually quite simple:
Honda Carburetor Jetting for Altitude.pdf
In the real world, I'm loading my bike with gear. Just added TCI Products racks and skid protection with Nelson-Rigg bags, check out the magazine article and HD videos. I can find myself riding at the lower desert around Moab and Southern California events. (The Moab Area can provide a range of 4,000-6500 feet, possibly more at the La Sal Range.) My XR650R carries added weight and will soon have a larger fuel tank, too. I also have the Hot Cams Stage 1 camshaft, which eliminates the auto-decompression start mechanism on the stock camshaft and has been an absolute joy in real world riding gains.
All of that said, I strive for a balance here, plus realism about not having to change jets every time I go somewhere. For the main jet, I opted for a 172. For the pilot, I intentionally installed the less efficient straight 68 (not a 68S). I get the flow rate but not the "better emulsified" fuel. The needle clip is 3rd position from top. The engine is faithfully and thoroughly "uncorked" to Honda 'Power-Up Kit' standards as well. I had to complete this upgrade, as the previous owner did not, and the engine was suffering prior to the top end rebuild. Your European market engine (stock) should have each of these modifications in its original form. We can confirm. Here is the Honda "factory" N.A. Power-Up Kit (not the all-out racing HRC kit) parts list:
Honda Factory Power Up Kit Part Numbers.txt
Why did I start with these specs? My reasoning: I'm not going to change jets for Moab, Utah (4,025 feet in town) or King of the Hammers at Johnson Valley, CA (2,300-4,600 feet elevation range). The 172 is conservative, slightly lean from a 175, rich enough for running at sea level without risk of holing a piston. (Much more considerate than Honda's draconian 125 main jet in North American engines, detuning the engine just to run with this ridiculously lean jet!) So, the remaining question is higher altitudes, and here's my experience to date. Accept this as my experience and equipment.
The engine runs very strongly from idle to redline, without blubber, hesitation or anything other than a fast ride. (See my Michelin road test 'Part 2' video for living proof.) It pulls incredibly well, with excellent transitions from curb idle through midrange to redline. The spark plug color looks great, a very good indicator of a single cylinder motorcycle engine's combustion process and air/fuel ratio.
As for starting, first let me emphasize that I use the manual compression release lever. Here's my approach:
1) I bring the piston to compression pressure (leading to TDC), then pull in the release lever and push over TDC just slightly with the kick starter before attempting to kick down.
2) Over TDC slightly, I firmly kick through (not with extreme force other than to overcome the needs of a 10:1 compression engine). I can get the engine to start most often on the first or second kick, at worst, the third kick.
3) Here is the capper: I avoid use of heavy choking. If completely cold, I either place the choke on half-choke or full choke for just a few kicks with the ignition turned off and compression release lever pulled in.
5) The throttle stays closed until actual engine firing, then gets blipped slightly, immediately, to let the engine breath and keep running. If cold-blooded, the throttle is held slightly open to let the engine stabilize.
4) If I fire the engine with the choke on full, it must immediately be stepped down to middle position or even off (warm ambient temps now around 75 degrees F when I start the bike). For a hardcore, subfreezing Nevada winter at 4,300 feet, I anticipate playing up the choke enrichment.
5) As soon as the engine is running, I open the choke lever fully. If I happen to get overly zealous with the choke and create a hard start or stall upon starting, I turn off the ignition, pull in the compression release lever, hold the throttle well open, and kick through 4-5 times to clean out the cylinder. Then I start over again.
This starting thing for the XR650R is apparently an issue. Many follow elaborate regimens to get the engine to fire. Personally, I believe they must be over-fueling or over-choking the engine. Choke opened immediately, I can get my engine to idle stably within a 1/4- to 1/2-mile of riding this time of year.
I do exert caution when the engine is cold while riding with the choke open. The engine is lean, and I can feel it wanting slightly more fuel, which I provide with throttle instead of the choke.
Keep in mind that the main jet size has virtually no impact on idle. The pilot jet does, however, and it also affects the lower speed throttle transitions. Of course, the idle mixture screw circuit has the largest impact with the stock carburetor design. I must say that other than the idle speed when cold with the choke completely off, my engine responds wonderfully, both hot and cold.
I compensate for the open choke until the engine warms. This is just my approach, I don't like over-fueling the engine during its warm-up cycle. Some don't mind. The tip-off for me is that the bike can be immediately ridden with the choke off, without hesitating, faltering or stalling—as long as I work the throttle slightly when coming to a complete stop and idle.
You may need or benefit from a leaner main jet at your altitude and engine tune, but this can only be tested at higher rpm with the engine's performance under open throttle. Lower speeds, you're more concerned with the pilot, and a 65, which is stock for North America, apparently is all Moose can provide. Sounds like they're emission constrained and not into the "Honda Power Up" kit approach, which is readily available through dealerships as "off-highway" use as you discovered. This is Catch-22, since the N.A. bike was not authorized for highway use, according to California and EPA, yet you can jet for better off-highway performance! And Honda is the guideline we use here, its Power-Up Kit part numbers include the 175 main, 68(S) pilot and the change in needle and seat.
The needle and seat change is not as crucial as the needle position, which should be 3rd clip position (from the top) for starters. This is an easy road test, as the transitions from a closed to open throttle, including abrupt throttle changes, will indicate the correctness or shortfalls of the pilot jet size and needle position. We can talk about this when you get the bike on the road.
For me, I took an educated guess and accounted for the improved breathing of the Power-Up part numbers, including the exhaust tip which you can see in the Nelson-Rigg/TCI Products coverage, and my camshaft change. I have the non-California, round inside intake grommet between the carburetor and the cylinder head, too. This was stock, as the bike, fortunately, was original sold in Texas. I have none of the California emissions pump paraphernalia, which pops up in distinctions between the XR650A and XR650AC parts listings.
AC is a California designated engine that deserves great sympathy. When you have the time on one of your online searches for part numbers, check out the distinctions and schematics for the AC versus straight A models. Here are the primary pieces you should not find on your European XR650R (not OEM on my cycle, either, fortunately) that California buyers will be chasing down for years to come: http://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/5053e96bf870021c54be3708/air-suction-valve-ac.
The other key AC pieces were the extreme exhaust tip restriction, narrowed passage intake grommet, restricted air box and jetting restrictions. Some of these items carry over to the "A" models as well. After the complete 'Power-Up Kit' upgrade, my engine is like yours should be, with the stock, non-California round type intake grommet, larger exhaust tip piping, unrestricted air box (yours might have the restrictors still) and proper jetting. You might share photos of your stock Euro equipment. N.A. members and guests would find that interesting.
I am very curious what your stock jetting turns out to be, including the main and pilot plus the needle clip position. A light rebuild is a wonderful treat for these carburetors, and judging by your idle mixture screw, perhaps you'll be lucky, and nobody damaged the rest of the carburetor. The idle screw is readily available, on my used model that was an item I replaced. The very fine tip needs extreme care when installing the screw. If off-center, that tip will bend in a wink. Do not force the screw into position, you'd be guaranteed trouble! When you remove the idle mixture screw, the tip size will be clear.
As for removing the damaged screw, there are several approaches here. Since you'll have the carburetor off anyway, you can carefully drill the center of the screw head with a smaller bit. If you have a drill motor than can be reversed, a left hand drill bit will often spin a screw loose while you're attempting to drill the hole. If not, use care not to damage the threaded portion of the carburetor body, and spend some time with a drill and tiny easy-out, removing the mixture screw once you can get the easy-out into the drilled hole.
Let's keep this discussion going. I'd like to know your findings, your conclusions and your experience with both the jetting and the starting technique. I don't believe that any properly tuned engine should be "hard to start". These engines are sensitive only due to one cylinder and lots of compression. Make friends with your engine's particular starting preferences. Mine work for me, I can start the engine cold or hot on one to three kicks maximum. That's actually better than the Baja racing versions of these engines.
My favorite cult classic XR650R movie, "Dust to Glory", shows how race positions actually change during a pit restart. Andy Grider has just outpaced Johnny Campbell in an epic battle between pits and hands over his bike to the next Honda B Team rider. The B Team rider can't get the XR650R to fire promptly, and the A Team rider sails by...Good tale about the XR650R and hard starting, but don't let this get you down. With proper tuning and conservative use of the choke, anyone can share my experience.
Note: As for starting thumper motorcycles, this XR650R is not my first rodeo. I teethed on a '69 BSA Victor 441 and owned three Honda XR enduro bikes prior to the XR650R. Granted, the XR650R is the beast of the bunch, yet starting the engine should be the least of the rider's challenges.
As for setting the idle screw, 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 turns from lightly seated is a nice place to start at your altitude. Give that a go, you'll make fine adjustment with the engine completely warmed. Again, I go for just enough enrichment for a very smooth and stable idle, nothing more or less. I've only touched the mixture screw one time since initial adjustment. Here is the factory procedure, your best guideline:
Honda XR650R Idle Mix Setting.pdf
Many owners like to fiddle endlessly with the idle speed screw, adjusting it up and down regularly. I stopped following this myth by concentrating on stabilizing the engine with the hand throttle on the extremely rare occasions when the engine seems hesitant to idle. Create stability by using your hand throttle, gently blipping (no major rpm changes, please, this is not a premix two-stroke!) or holding steady at a slightly higher rpm than curb idle for a moment—until the engine cleans out and temperatures stabilize. With steady air and fuel flow, and coolant temperature stability, the XR650R will want to idle smoothly again—even with its stock ignition and OE carburetor.
As you gain confidence in the engine, its tune and your skillful carburetor rebuild and adjustment, this will get easier. If you set the carburetor to factory recommendations in each area, including float height, you should have a much less finicky engine. Don't race off to buy a $700 replacement carburetor just yet!
Moses
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Very logical troubleshooting, lebo7204...A coolant sensor problem can make the engine stay in warm-up, enrichment mode. Certainly worth a try if you're getting that code. Not sure whether 21114jy has a code. Begs investigating, for sure.
Moses
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Hi, Dave, and welcome to the forums!...You'll find a great community of Jeep and other 4x4 and OHV owners for discussion and insight!
The track bar is often in question on the Jeep YJ Wrangler, a vehicle with leaf springs front and rear. On a TJ Wrangler, Jeep XJ Cherokee (with front link arm and coil suspension) and other Jeep models with link-and-coil suspension, the use of a track bar is a necessity. A vehicle with link arms or radius arms needs the track bar between the frame and axle to keep the entire axle assembly, wheels/tires and steering linkage in lateral alignment. Without a track bar on a vehicle with coil springs and links or radius arms (like Ford light 4x4s), the front or rear axle would wallow wildly sideways!
Traditionally, leaf springs double as a means for keeping the axle laterally in place. As the axle attempts to shift sideways, the leaf springs resist this movement. The springs, by design, will move upward and downward in their arcs. If the anchor and shackle bushings are in good condition, there is little room for lateral spring movement. The axle rises and sets, or articulates, on relatively stable arcs. I say "relatively" because both springs can move slightly laterally, which would change the axle position (laterally) and also impact the relationship and position of the steering linkage.
This last point about steering linkage is important with a vehicle that has considerable wheel travel—like a Jeep 4x4. If you note the design of the YJ Wrangler steering linkage, it is easy to see how toe change and bump steer could occur. The track bar at the front axle is intended to make the axle rise and set without shifting laterally. Also, accurate steering geometry is easier to maintain. Because of this, the front track bar helps counter bump steer as well.
So, the front track bar is for lateral axle alignment as the chassis and steering linkage rise and set under spring compression and rebound. AMC/Jeep apparently wanted the YJ Wrangler to "handle" and "steer" better than a Jeep CJ, the YJ's immediate predecessor. The major breakthrough with the YJ Wrangler was a Jeep that could still go off-pavement and work as hard as a CJ model yet produce a highway ride and feel more like the emerging 4x4s and SUVs that offered improved ride and handling qualities.
The rear track bar also plays a role in handling. If the rear axle shifts laterally, this can cause rear axle steer. "Thrust" is the rear axle pushing the vehicle forward, as it does with any rear drive vehicle. If the axle is shifting away from the frame centerline, the result is axle shift, rear axle steer and poor handling. The driver would constantly be compensating for the vehicle's erratic steering, caused by a shifting and steering rear axle!
That's the reason for track bars on a four-wheel, leaf sprung, beam axle model that appears not to need them. And this is why many who modify the YJ Wrangler believe that the track bars are optional.
Additionally, for maximum wheel travel and axle articulation, the track bar can actually be inhibiting. The shape of the track bar dictates its ability to follow the normal, lateral alignment of the axle over its range of movement. If the wheel travel increases, the stock track bar may not work as well or could even create a problem.
If the wheel travel is way in excess of the OEM (stock spring) wheel travel, the track bars can overreach their alignment limits and either 1) force the axle into a lateral misalignment or 2) stop spring travel at the point the bar begins to bind against the lateral resistance of the springs. For the track bar to work with an aftermarket lift kit's higher arch springs, the kit manufacturer often supplies a "track bar drop bracket". This was the case with the lift kit I installed on the XJ Cherokee, the Ram 3500 pickup and for Jeep TJ Wrangler link-and-coil applications. (See the lift installation articles at the magazine.) The drop bracket helps maintain the track bar function, providing a track bar arc of movement similar to the OEM spring/frame/axle relationship.
It really comes down to whether your Jeep handles properly on-highway. This is subjective, because many owners are okay with "compensating" for slightly wallowing suspension or bump steer. Also, it is important to note whether your lift kit manufacturer expects the use of the track bar or not. This should be indicated in the installation instructions. In the case of a leaf-sprung YJ Wrangler, the issue is more about handling and steering capability than whether there is a severe safety hazard—like the axles uncontrollably shifting back and forth laterally.
Check the instructions and parts supplied with your lift kit. A 3-inch lift could be enough to upset the track bar geometry unless track bar drop brackets have been provided. If there are no drop brackets, you need to test the track bar arcs to see if they allow full drop and rise of the axles over the range of the spring travel—without trying to force the axle sideways or laterally.
A track bar is just that: On a leaf or link-coil spring suspension, the bar should not force the axle sideways and should simply follow the natural up-and-down movement of the axle in alignment with the chassis/frame. Without a drop bracket, the track bar may attempt to push or pull the axle sideways over the range of suspension travel.
The use of a sway bar disconnect makes good sense for off-pavement use. Here, you'll have more axle articulation and range of travel with the sway bar disconnected. On the highway, however, if you forget to reconnect the sway bar links, there will be a distinct increase in body/chassis roll on corners and an increase in chassis height that compromises center-of-gravity stability! The sway bar does have its place, keeping the chassis more level and squat during hard cornering. The sway bar lowers the center-of-gravity and helps resist rollover and bad handling.
Moses
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hunfiscam...Welcome to the forums!...Your 42RLE problem sounds at least like a shift cable, park lockout cable or shift solenoid related issue. First, I would troubleshoot the shift mechanism, park lockout and shift cable adjustments. Next, look for a solenoid problem. Lastly, suspect reverse clutch trouble or other internal problems.
Everyone prefers an easier cure than a complete overhaul, so begin with the external issues. Start with the gear shift mechanism, gearshift cables and park lockout. From there, move to the clutch hold functions and the shift solenoids.
I've isolated three factory approaches to the 42RLE in a Liberty KJ Jeep. Please review these and follow-up with troubleshooting as needed:
42RLE Shift Mechanism.pdf 42RLE Clutch Applies.pdf 42RLE Gearshift Cable & Holding Clutches.pdf
It's always good to get a conclusive result. The 42RLE is not simple, however, and being conclusive will take a systematic approach. I would begin with the shift linkage, cables and overall shift mechanism to see if the parking pawl is actually dragging as you hint. Past that, the pressure checks and clutch apply checks would be warranted. Consider clutch damage on the reverse clutch, although the binding issue could also be solenoids sticking.
Unfortunately, as an auction vehicle, this KJ came with little historical information. Look for signs of the transmission pan being dropped for a hasty repair. Look for an electrical wiring patch job, especially to the shift solenoids or transmission controller.
I trust you're on the right track. You know your way around the vehicle by now with the transfer case removed and front driveline disconnected. Thanks for sharing the YouTube video, it was insightful.
Please update this topic with any questions, findings and your repairs...
Moses
Avoid Honda XR650R Motorcycle Engine Damage—Use the Correct Main and Pilot Jets!
in Dirt & Dual-Sport Motorcycles
Posted
Greg...Very pleased that you followed the "Honda Power Up Kit" formula for jetting and the needle. The OE restrictors are likely out of the air box, too, right?...You'll be happy near home with this jetting, and I'm getting away with nearly the same jetting at rides to 6,500 feet: 172 main with straight 68 pilot and the needle at #3 clip position. Will test even higher altitudes this fall, I'm headed to High Rock Canyon and surroundings. Will be filming from the bike, I'll share the link after our ride.
Like you, I've ridden a very long time without feeling compelled to do many wheel stands. I got my first two-wheel "Scooter License" at age 14 in Nevada, that was 51 years ago. The limit was 35 mph and 6-1/2 horsepower, which I quickly ignored, building an outlaw Cushman with 8-plus horsepower and a peak speed around 60 mph. The XR650R power to the ground is tremendous, however, you'll have no problem keeping the front wheel on the ground, especially when hard desert riding. You're used to the XR500R, just imagine that bike on steroids!
I thought your seat issue might have remedy at Acerbis. Their X-Seat offerings for Honda do not include the XR650R. I found a listing for a seat cover, and this could be more to your liking, anyway. The cover might allow some room for additional padding, and a creative upholstery shop can perform magic. Give these folks a call or drop them an Email to confirm whether the cover allows enough room for added padding:
http://www.2wheelpartssupply.com/cycle-works-seat-cover.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_campaign=paid_search_google_pla&scid=scplp203623&gclid=CjwKEAjw68ufBRDt0Zmrn4W_8AwSJADcjp1cXJ1sOqOMW2aLJ0ecHaHzfJJBioL8d2VfaEuWVsBjahoCV8Tw_wcB
A place to begin, you need to be comfortable in the saddle!
Moses