Jeep CJ-7 Needs a T-5 Transmission Solution

[60Bubba]

I guess it must be the time of year for failing T-5's! Several months ago I rebuilt mine with help from the forum.  After, the 2nd gear synchronization was fixed, but the other problem remained.

Shifting was fine 1-5, however after running in 5th on the highway and coming to a stop, I had difficulty moving the shifter into anything other than 4th gear.  Early on, it just required a little pressure to get into 4th then all other gears were accessible.  Over the last few months, the problem has gotten worse to the point that on several occasions I've been stuck at a light or stop sign trying to jam it into 4th to then get access to any other gears.

Last weekend with some very cold temps, I had the same issue PLUS I started hearing a horrible screeching which again seems to be the throwout bearing.  I know how to do the bearing, but at this point I'm not inclined to put any more money into this box due to the shifter trouble.  Kind of at a loss as to how to proceed.

1. Buy a new T-5 and put a 4:1 kit in the D300 to help keep the torque load off the transmission now that I'm doing some more advanced wheeling (with a Moab trip scheduled for '18).

2. Buy a used AX-15 and go through the hassle of installing a hydraulic clutch assembly and adapting to the D300.

3. Find a T-18 with the granny low and just accept that I won't have an overdrive.

4. Convert to a TH700R4 with a floor shifter and torque converter lock up switch to give me compression braking on the downhill sections.

5. Push it off a cliff.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba, always pleased to see your posts...Below are my thoughts about you current T-5 issue and options:

46 minutes ago, 60Bubba said:

I guess it must be the time of year for failing T-5's! Several months ago I rebuilt mine with help from the forum.  After, the 2nd gear synchronization was fixed, but the other problem remained.

Shifting was fine 1-5, however after running in 5th on the highway and coming to a stop, I had difficulty moving the shifter into anything other than 4th gear.  Early on, it just required a little pressure to get into 4th then all other gears were accessible.  Over the last few months, the problem has gotten worse to the point that on several occasions I've been stuck at a light or stop sign trying to jam it into 4th to then get access to any other gears.

Could be the clutch not releasing completely, we discussed this earlier...The premature T.O. bearing issue is sometimes the result of a bearing that is dragging on the release fingers continuously.  Input shaft drag at the crankshaft pilot bearing can create this symptom, too.  

Last weekend with some very cold temps, I had the same issue PLUS I started hearing a horrible screeching which again seems to be the throwout bearing.  I know how to do the bearing, but at this point I'm not inclined to put any more money into this box due to the shifter trouble.  Kind of at a loss as to how to proceed.

1. Buy a new T-5 and put a 4:1 kit in the D300 to help keep the torque load off the transmission now that I'm doing some more advanced wheeling (with a Moab trip scheduled for '18).

There may be a T-5 equivalent available, or Tremec may have an alternative.  A World Class T-5 would do the trick if Tremec has a current equivalent.  The WC was an H.O. Mustang application that Advance Adapters sold for the years when available.  Richmond may also have a heavy-duty 5-speed or 6-speed transmission for swapping...This could actually be more sensible and a gain in torque rating compared to other overdrive options.  See what you come up with...We'll see how many parts are involved and the cost.

I did an NV4500 into a CJ-7, showcased in my Jeep CJ Rebuilder's Manual:  1972-86 (Bentley Publishers).  This has been an Advance Adapters mainstay swap if you can find an NV4500 in good condition.  There are the usual concerns around transmission length/fit, drive lines and trying to keep the OE driveline and engine mount locations, clutch pieces, floorboard fit and shifter boot, which may not sound big, but I spent more time scrounging for a boot and plate than anticipated.  This is a true, iron-case medium-duty grade truck transmission that would withstand the rigors of your current engine or an LS swap in the future.  

That raises the option of an LS V-8 swap.  How's your 4.0L engine holding up?  Would it be cheaper to find an LS V-8 with a 4L60E attached and adapt both to your CJ-7 chassis and the D300?  Look at this option in the AA catalog, too.  There's an in-house LS V-8 swap at AA that I covered in video for at the magazine:  http://www.4wdmechanix.com/HD-Video-Advance-Adapters-Jeep-TJ-Wrangler-LS-V-8-Conversion?r=1

2. Buy a used AX-15 and go through the hassle of installing a hydraulic clutch assembly and adapting to the D300.

This swap does involve some work and parts.  The bellhousing, clutch disk splines, output spline count, D300 clocking position/ring, floor plate hole, and AX15 output shaft length are some of the concerns.  The Advance Adapters catalog will help clarify the swap.  It requires the later hydraulics, clutch release arm and bearing, an external hydraulic slave and so forth.

3. Find a T-18 with the granny low and just accept that I won't have an overdrive.

Cheaper maybe, you still need the Advance Adapters parts if you go with the common Ford 2WD source version with a lower (6.4:1) non-synchromesh 1st gear ratio than the '70s AMC CJs with their taller 1st gear ratio.  Worth mentioning, you'll be disassembling the T-18 to install the AA output shaft.

4. Convert to a TH700R4 with a floor shifter and torque converter lock up switch to give me compression braking on the downhill sections.

This involves adapters at each end of the TH700R4.  You would have overdrive, which might arguably be better than the OE Chrysler 999/904 3-speed automatics.  The OE 3-speed automatics would not be a thrill and have no O.D.

5. Push it off a cliff.

Always an option, though you would need to recover the vehicle and clean up the environment to avoid a fine...Too much invested for that choice.

 

[60Bubba]

Moses,

Thanks as always for the observations. Before I rebuilt the T-5, I spoke to Paul Cangialosi of 5Speed.com.  He has a proprietary Jaguar racing transmission based on the T-5.  He used to build a "World Class" version of the T-5 with proper Jeep gearing.  He gave up because there was little demand and apparently the aluminum case has enough flex that folks were not getting satisfactory results out of it.  I'll look into Richmond...

How would I determine if the clutch isn't releasing fully?  I did measure the pedal free play after the reassembly.  Everything seemed A-OK immediately following the rebuild, except for that same 5th gear issue.  It existed before the rebuild, and has gotten worse after.

The 4.0 seems fine for now, after I determined the oil pressure was fine.  That said, it's got 160,000 or so on it and I have no idea how it was treated before the transplant, so every day is a gamble!.  Maybe a 4.8 or 5.3 swap is the way to go.  I need to watch your video to see how involved that swap is.  I looked once upon a time to see what Novak wanted for a palletized engine/transmission swap.  If you can believe it, they wanted $10,000+ for a junkyard engine, transmission and required equipment.  If I can get a good deal on a complete pull out, maybe that is a viable option.

It sounds like the 4500 might be a good bet, especially since I know a guy that did one already   I have the book, so maybe I'll spend some time figuring out which applications of the NV4500 I need to be looking for.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...Usually, the clutch release issue creates some degree of vehicle creep or at least load on the engine.  Engine load is hard to determine with an EFI engine, as the IAC tries to maintain engine idle speed despite a load increase.  The easiest way I can suggest would be placing the vehicle in gear with the engine off and rear wheels safely off the ground on a pair of axle jack stands.  Have someone depress the clutch pedal all the way to the floorboard or a reasonable depth and try to rotate the rear driveline with the transmission in various gears.  If the driveline will not rotate, the clutch has not released or the pilot bearing is grabbing the clutch gear's nose.

A grabby pilot bearing can be checked by placing the transmission in a gear, rear wheels safely off the ground, front wheels chocked, in 2WD range.  Have a helper depress the clutch pedal fully and start the engine, run at an idle.  Listen to the transmission main case with a sounding tube (copper tubing, PVC pipe, etc.) or automotive stethoscope.  Have your helper shift the transmission to neutral.  Continue listening to the transmission.  The spinning counter gear noise should gradually subside if the clutch/input gear is not spinning.  If the noise continues at engine speed pitch, the input gear is rotating and likely seizing in the pilot bearing...This suggestion takes into account that your clutch may or may not be releasing.  The grabby pilot bearing test can also be applied to test whether the clutch is releasing completely, but these issues need to be separated.

Free play at the clutch pedal is not enough.  If the linkage is worn, you can have free-play at the pedal and still not have free-play between the release fingers of the clutch cover and the release bearing face.  Check for free-play at the clutch release arm.  Make sure you can actually move the release arm a normal distance with the pedal retracted.  You should be able to observe physical movement of the release bearing, from its contact with the cover fingers to a reasonable gap between the fingers and bearing face.  The clutch arm return spring should pull the arm and the release bearing away from the clutch cover fingers when the clutch pedal retracts.  If the release bearing's face rides on the fingers continuously, the bearing will wear out prematurely.

Measuring the play at the release arm will also indicate whether worn clutch linkage is preventing the pedal from moving the release arm far enough to fully disengage the clutch.  Normal free play at the release arm, with a normal drop at the pedal before the cover fingers start to move, is the goal.  If that is still not enough to release the clutch completely, you can adjust the height of the clutch pedal to provide more travel.  Raise the pedal height from the floor, then adjust the free play at the release arm to be sure you have the correct play and clearance between the clutch cover fingers and release bearing face.  With mechanical clutch linkage, which I'm guessing your CJ-7 has, I like to see at least 1/8" of space between the release bearing face and the clutch cover fingers when the clutch pedal retracts completely.  

If you like the 4.0L or a possible 4.6L rebuild of your current engine at some point, the NV4500 would be a strong prospect.  Even an LS engine could mate to the NV4500, using a G.M. bellhousing, flywheel and G.M. input/clutch gear.  Check out the video for the LS swap at Advance Adapters and compare that with my book coverage of the NV4500 swap using an inline six in a Jeep CJ-7 chassis.  At the time I wrote the book and did this conversion at my shop, the NV4500 transmission was the ticket.  It was also available as a new unit.  Today, you might be back to rebuilding a core NV4500 transmission, a task that should be easier now that you've done the T-5.

Moses

 

 

[60Bubba]

Moses,

Thanks for the guidance on investigating the throwout bearing.  I looked into an AX15 or NV4500 swap.  Starting with a rebuilt AX15 for $850+$150 for the shifter and shifter cane minus 10% military discount, the required adapters and other items (using my bellhousing with the Novak adapter saves the trouble of swapping to a hydraulic clutch) totaled up to about $2100.

I have other things that need to be done to the Jeep, and I just can't justify the expense right now.  First, I want to put a 4:1 kit in the Dana 300.  That increases the overall cost to $2800 or so, since I'm going to do the 4:1 kit when I have the transmission and T-case out this time.

By comparison, I can get a T-5 rebuilt from the same local company for about $765.  That means I can do the entire job for less than $1500 with the 4:1 kit.  I'm rationalizing that this transmission made it almost 34 years, much of the time with very unfavorable overall gear ratios due to the 33" tires and 3.31 gears.

I'm hoping that a newly rebuilt T-5 installed in a driveline with proper gearing will last.  My other thought is that the 4:1 kit will remove a lot of stress from things during the more technical, rocky off-roading I've been doing with my club.  I don't know if my logic is sound, but that's the direction I'm leaning.  before I tear into things this time, I'll conduct the checks you recommended to see if the throwout bearing is dragging. 

[Moses Ludel]

Good reasoning, 60Bubba...Cost-effective and much less work if this shop will build and warrant a T-5 rebuild at that price.  Does this include hard parts as needed?

With the lower transfer case ratio, you would take stress off the T-5.  The axle gearing has been tall, even more so with 33" tires.  Are you still running the 3.31 gears?  I would want 4.10s for multi-purpose highway and off-road use, 4.56s if you're off-road most of the time...3.31s and 33" tires would clearly be rough on a T-5.

As a point of interest, 5th gear is the weakest gear in a 5-speed overdrive unit.  (Remember how small 5th gear was during the rebuild?)  I always use 5th gear as intended:  for overdrive only.  5th gear in a T-5 is not just the next gear up.  It is dramatically weaker than 4th gear; 4th gear is the lock-up of the input gear to the output/mainshaft.  If you install an NV4500, its 5th gear is also the weakest in the unit, however, all of the gears are such overkill for a lightweight Jeep CJ that 5th gear would be considerably stronger than any gear in the T-5.

Fully on board with the rebuilt T-5 idea, though you could actually run a T-18 with the 3.31 gears.  Fourth gear (1:1) would be slightly over-driving with that axle gearing and 33" tires.  Compound low gear (Ford 2WD truck version with 6.32:1 first gear) would compensate on the bottom end when off-road, dramatically improving your reduction over the T-5 1st gear.  4th in the T-18 would be lower than your current T-5 overdrive, however.  This would increase engine rpm in your highest gear.  With the reduced load on the engine, fuel mileage might be the same.

Do the math on the T-18 option: The 6.32:1 1st gear type (common Ford F-truck, get a 2WD version) is the only T-18 to consider.  1st is non-synchromesh, 2nd is typical start-up gear at 3.09:1, 1.69 3rd gear, 1:1 4th gear.  Reverse is 7.44:1.  These units are readily available out of 1967-1991 Ford trucks, and you need the Advance Adapters output shaft/conversion kit.  Overall cost would be comparatively cheaper than other options.  The T-18 is also cheaper to rebuild if the gear sets and shafts are in serviceable shape.

If synchromesh and a closer ratio 4-speed (5.11:1 1st; 2nd 3.03:1; 3rd 1.79:1, and 1:1 4th gear ratio) is desired, the rarer T-19 is an option (various 1968-87 Ford F-trucks) with its synchromesh on a taller 1st gear.  Considering the reduction in 1st gear for the T-18, you would likely be okay with a T-18 and 3.31 gears, with or without the 4:1 transfer case upgrade—at least for a while, you could add the 4:1 in the Dana 300 later if desired.  More information on the T-18 and T-19 at Advance Adapters:  http://www.advanceadapters.com/tech-vault/1-borg-warner-t18t19/.

More info on rebuild parts for the T-19, just for comparison; T-18 info also available at this website:

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/borg_warner_t19_overhaul_kit.html

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/borg_warner_t18_t19_overhaul_kit.html

Moses

[60Bubba]

Moses,

I have considered the T-18/19 option.  Just for kicks I ran the crawl ratio on that 6.32 first gear and a Dana 300 with 4:1 kit.  It works out to 104:1!

I did put 4.10 gears in about this time last year before ever taking it on an offroad trip.  I put a Spartan Locker in the front and an Eaton TruTrac helical gear limited slip in the back at the same time. When I did the math back then, the overall final drive ratio with 4.10's and 33" tires was just slightly lower than the factory gearing with the 3.31 R&P gears and the stock tires.

I agree that another T-5 would make little sense if I was still running the original differential gears.  I sometimes wish I'd gone with 4.56, but since I do a fair amount of highway driving, I think the 4.10's were the best all around option, as you alluded to.  Taking off from a stop is so much better now than with the 3.31 I was shocked.  With the new clutch in, it was smooth as butter.

The local shop that I've been talking to will give me a T-5 or an AX15 rebuilt with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty for $850 list minus 10% discount.  Again, the AX15 requires a $150 shifter in addition to all the other adapters and accessories.

I've seen some T-18s on eBay, but I haven't asked my local shop if they have them available rebuilt.  Am I correct that to go to a T18 or T19 I'll need a different bellhousing?  Also, you mentioned needing to find a 2WD Ford model--do I have to get a 4WD tailshaft housing to connect the Dana 300 to?  I'm not sure how much I can save if I go the 4spd route, and I also don't know about losing the overdrive since I have done the R&P gear swap.

I'll keep looking at parts over the holidays and decide which direction I'm going so I can start gathering parts for another build party in my garage with the Jeep club.  Happy Holidays to you and your family!

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...How was 5th gear with the 4.10s and 33" tires?  Did is seem "right" or tall?  I have 33" tires and 4.10s on the XJ Cherokee with estimated 3,700-3800 pounds curb weight.  Engine is around 2,100-2,400 rpm at highway or interstate cruise speeds, and with the Hypertech Max Energy tuning (drops peak torque down to 2,000 rpm), it's okay but, frankly, not thrilling and often dropping to 3rd gear to maintain speed on light hills with the AW4 using cruise control.

I should have done 4.56s for the AW4 automatic with overdrive.  Like your situation, I "speedometer corrected" with these gears, same effect as OE tire diameter and 3.55 OE gears...I'm soon solving the entire issue with an R2.8L Cummins Repower crate engine, the 4.10s should actually be ideal with the low-end torque.  (See the interview video with Steve Sanders from Cummins at the recent SEMA Show:  http://www.4wdmechanix.com/advance-adapters-and-cummins-2-8l-diesel-engine-conversion-for-jeep/.)  Peak torque with the four-cylinder diesel is from 1600-3200 rpm—flat the whole way!

Both Advance Adapters and Novak have Ford T-18/T-19 to Dana 300 adapters that include a tailhousing adapter and mainshaft for the transmission.  You cannot use the 4WD tail shaft and housing from a Ford 4WD model, it's too long.  That's why you source a common Ford 2WD T-18, they're cheaper than 4x4 items, and you'll be tossing out the mainshaft anyway.  Here's the basis paradigm, you would need a T-150/176 bellhousing, and that would be the end of your CPS on the bellhousing.  With your EFI conversion, is your CPS pickup on the crankshaft damper?  Here's the scoop from Novak:

  The Ford T18 is also an excellent candidate for AMC Jeep bellhousings made from 1976 to 1986 that were married to the T150, T18 and T176 transmissions, or otherwise have an available bellhousing bolt pattern of 8-1/2" wide by 6-5/16" tall. They are readily compatible with these engines and bellhousings, and need only a custom pilot bushing. Note that these pilot bushings are usually part of our transfer case adapter kits when ordered properly. For more details, see Adapting Ford Transmissions to AMC Bellhousings for details...The 4.0L Jeep I6 (both Renix and Mopar systems) is adaptable using the same method as above, with the addition of installing a Crank Position Sensor (CPS) into the aforementioned bellhousing. This is a service that we provide affordably and in quick turnaround.

As for bellhousings, the link in the Novak text is useful and leads to this page:  https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/adapters/engine-to-transmission/amc/ford-amc/.  See the details.

Here's the Advance Adapters T-18 to Dana 300 adapter: http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/50-7500--ford-t18-to-jeep-dana-300-adapter-kit/

The overdrive loss is the kicker.  If your axle/tire gearing is tall enough for a 1:1 top gear in the transmission, great.  If not, that's a problem.  If your existing chassis lift will tolerate 35" tires or 34" or whatever works out mathematically for the right engine speed at highway cruise in 4th gear of the T-18, that's an option unless it also requires additional chassis lift.  I recently went to 37" tires, actually a true 36.5" diameter, on the Ram.  It had 34.6" tires with a 4" lift (rated for a max tire size of 35"), and the 0.95" difference on radius did not create a problem for the existing 4" lift.  Sometimes the magic works!

Moses

 

 

[60Bubba]

Moses,

I have the crankshaft CPS since this was previously a MOPAR EFI kit.  The gearing seems pretty good as is, though it's a little tall on the highway until I get up to about 70 MPH, which isn't often due to a well-developed self-preservation instinct!

My current Mickey Thompson MTZ tires have lots of life left, but maybe I can go with the T-18 and deal with the slight underdrive until I need new tires, at which point I'll switch to 35" of the same style.  I'm not driving the Jeep nearly as much anymore.  My wife recently got a job, so I'm not taking the toddler to daycare on the Navy base here in Millington.  That has ruled out the Jeep as a commuter for the most part.  The need for highway gearing is greatly diminished. 

I also just bought a Nissan Titan XD PRO4X with the 5.0 Cummins diesel, so my tow vehicle needs are set, meaning the CJ will be riding a trailer to all upcoming club runs.  That T-18 is looking more and more practical...

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...The T-18 is a cost-effect way to get gear reduction with or without the 4:1 Dana 300 kit.  Of course, the 4:1 would be useful if you decide to rebuild the T/C when installing the T-18.  My step-by-step coverage of the Dana 300 rebuild in your copy of the Rebuilder's Manual will help here.

I like the T-18's fit, not too long, avoiding driveline length issues.  Verify that the Advance Adapters' or Novak adapter kit and a T176 bellhousing's depth will place the T/C at the OE position and save driveshaft work.  You will need to get used to the non-synchromesh on 1st/compound gear, typically starting out in second, which is actually taller than your current 1st gear ratio in the T-5, making your 4.10s viable.

The T-19 by comparison has a similar 2nd gear ratio (3.03:1) but is a slightly taller 1st gear ratio (5.11:1 instead of 6.32).  You can start out in 1st (synchromesh) gear in the T-19.  This would work well with a 35"-37" diameter tire change.  Regardless of which transmission you choose, the added reduction in first/compound low gear will be very gratifying.  If that's not enough, consider an older technology G.M. SM420 with its 7.05:1 compound low gear version.

Note:  The SM420 is a short unit that would require an engine to transmission adapter as well as the transmission to T/C adapter and a mainshaft kit.  The SM420 is getting a bit long in the tooth and somewhat outstripped by the SM465 conversion.  Either of these units are great for G.M. V-8 conversions, which use the conventional G.M. bellhousing. 

See whether your T-5 bellhousing uses the 8-1/2" x 6-5/16" front face pattern that is common for the T-18.  If so, that would eliminate the need for a T150/176 Jeep bellhousing (although the T150/176 bellhousing should be readily available and is replicated new as well).  Some planning here can shave expense and reduce the number of parts involved.

Congrats on the new Titan 4x4 with 5.0L Cummins!  It would be great to see a topic with your impressions at the Nissan forum.  Your comments would be widely appreciated!  Enjoy that truck and Cummins power.  

As a footnote, I mentioned the Cummins' R2.8L four-cylinder install into our '99 XJ Cherokee, tentatively Spring 2017.  Steve Sanders from Cummins Repower shares that the high-tech four shares many features and architecture with the 5.0L V-8.  This engine is slated for the Nissan Frontier and export markets, already fitted to Brazilian F350 Ford trucks and school buses.  Should be plenty of torque (267 lb-ft versus the 4.0L at 225 lb-ft) for the XJ.  

Is your 5.0L Titan Cummins V-8 a beast?  I'll watch for your Nissan posts...

Moses

  

 

[60Bubba]

Moses,

I think I'm beginning to suffer from what we in my business call "analysis paralysis."  I know the budget-conscious option is to replace the T-5 and perhaps install the LoMax 4:1 kit in the transfer case.  On the other hand, I'm also aware of the limitations of the T-5 and I know my long term plan is to stroke the existing 4.0 when the time for a rebuild comes.  I really doubt the T-5 will last long with more power.

The T-18 seems like the next best fit, but with the dizzying array of T18 configurations, it's tough to source a transmission and trust I'm getting the right thing.  I know your guidance (and other research) tells me which models to look for, but what I'm discovering is that most folks selling used or rebuilt transmissions are very short on the details regarding which ratios and/or what the donor vehicle was.  Novak has turnkey kits which I assume are based on the more desirable 6.32 first gear transmissions, but those run about $2000 for an adapted kit.  Based on a starting price of well over $1000 for the transmission alone, this seems like a good deal for the rest of the parts needed to adapt it, but I really wish I could start with a cheaper rebuilt gear box.  I'm also leery of having what is essentially a three speed transmission after driving a five speed for so long.  I remember not liking the T150 in my old CJ-5 much, but I realize it also had unfavorable gearing, so that may not be a fair comparison.

There's also still the idea of the 700R4, but that looks to be an even more complex swap, as it involves the need for a Lokar or other floor shifter (not interested in a column swap) as well as the need to install some kind of TC lock-up functionality.

Anyway, the internal debate goes on, but in the meantime I did write up a little info on the Titan XD over in the Nissan section.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...Really liked your Titan XD initial "review", looking forward to more as you accrue miles and begin toting the CJ around.  Do you have a car hauling trailer?  The "Oklahoma/Texas" wood decked tandem axle trailers are affordable new or used, I bought ours new in the mid-'90s for $1600; it has tandem axles that rate the trailer at 7,000 pound capacity with brakes at each wheel.

I'd recommend against the 700R4 unless you do a G.M. V-8 conversion.  Finding the T-18 core is very simple:  A 2WD 1960s-'80s Ford F-truck unit.  Older is fine, no gains with a later application as long as the gears are in good shape.  The sources run out by mid-'80s, Ford opted for the beefier NP435 (which is also an option in your case, I've done it, and the 1st gear ratio is a highly desirable 6.69:1).  A bigger NP435 does require driveshaft length changes.  

Note: Ford T-18 truck applications should have the common bellhousing pattern.  With an NP435, Ford or Dodge will work.

Anyway, to avoid analysis paralysis, the simple track is the 2WD F-truck T-18.  You don't want to waste money on a "rebuilt" unit because you're going to rebuild the unit anyway with the installation of the adapter main shaft.  (Unless you can justify the $2K Novak approach, which doesn't make sense to me as a transmission builder.)  This is a straightforward rebuild, easier than the T-5, the T-18 transmission is not "busy".  

The only caveat is getting the synchronizer rings, plates and springs correctly assembled, follow a shop manual here.  Any vintage truck manual would suffice.  The T-18 is a fundamental transmission.  I rebuilt many of these units in the day, using a common Motors Truck or Chilton Truck manual as a guide.

I believe you can find a core for $100-$200 and get the rebuild parts kit for less than $200 if the gears are not damaged.  Inspect the gears before you buy a unit.  Make sure the input gear and the pilot bearing between the input gear and mainshaft feel okay by rocking the input and output shafts up and down while watching the gear set.

Moses

[60Bubba]

I've been doing some searching for a T-18 or a core.  So far, the best FleaBay deals I've come across are a couple for around $400 that I wouldn't even consider using without a rebuild, not to mention the freight to get them here. I've also seen rebuilt versions for $600 plus freight.

I called back and talked to the folks that had the T-5 and AX-15 rebuilds locally in Memphis.  They have rebuilt (12 month/12,000 miles) units for $950 plus $500 core.  They offered to give me $250 credit toward the core charge if I give them my T-5.  I also got them to agree to sell me a core for $250 plus the T-5.  Not a great deal, but the only local option for a rebuildable core I've found.  By the way, they also have access to NP435's and perhaps T-19's.  I'd really like to get the synchronized 1st gear, but I guess the granny gear isn't available in most of the the T-19s.  If I go with them, at least I have several options and the chance to inspect before purchase.

I'll keep checking the classifieds in hopes that a better option will turn up.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...If you do go down the road of using this rebuilder, be sure to supply them with the Advance Adapters or Novak mainshaft for the output before the rebuild...The $1200 after surrendering your T-5 sounds high, frankly.  These units were all over recycling yards for years at $150.  Private parties were $75-$100.

Granted, times change, but $250 for a rebuildable core would be plenty from a commercial source.  $150 would be plenty from a garage sale or private party.  You don't need a "guaranteed" transmission, but do ask for removal of the shift tower for a complete, rotating gear inspection and bearing check before buying the unit.  Gears are expensive, look for signs of misaligned gears or irregular tooth contact patterns.

The T-19 does have the more popular "close-ratio" version (around 4:1 1st gear ratio), but that's no worse than the T-5 and raises the stamina bar dramatically.  Holding out for the lower 1st gear ratio would be better, of course.  Don't rule out the I-H trucks, they have a 6.32:1 T-19 option.  Ford is 4:1 or 5.11:1.  

Caution:  Always verify the transmission ratio by turning the input gear with the transmission in 1st gear and counting the input gear's rotations before the output shaft turns one full turn.  On the I-H version of the T-19, make sure the transmission face pattern and input gear's stick-out length is correct for the bellhousing type.  Be sure the input gear is not longer (front stick-out length) than a Ford type T-19.  I-H often uses a deeper bellhousing with a longer input stick-out.

An NP435 has the seriously low compound gear, a non-sychro 6.69:1; this is a big plus even without synchro on first and may be enough to eliminate or at least temporarily offset the 4:1 Dana 300 gear change.  The 2nd gear ratio is 3.34 on NP435 units with the deep compound gear.  Be careful, there are G.M. and other versions of the NP435 with a taller 1st gear ratio.  You do want the 6.69:1.  Always check/test on the bench or ground before buying.

Persist, it's worth it.  There must be dozens and dozens of these units in rural recycling yards or just plain back yards at Tennessee!  Ask around.  You only need a rebuildable core with gears in good shape.  Share photos if you find a unit that needs a second opinion.  Agreed, the wide ratio T-19 is a rarer design, but they're out there.  A T-18 or NP435 is more common.  We can discuss what turns up.

Moses 

[60Bubba]

I have a few inquiries out for some cheaper used transmissions.  I agree that the rebuilt price from the local shop is too high; I won't go that route.  You might be shocked to know that this is the ONLY company that sells manual transmissions in the Memphis area.  They are also just about the only ones that will work on one.  I guess the manuals really are a dying breed.

I called all the wreck yards in a 20-25 mile radius, and it seems like they've all stopped carrying transmissions.  They all referred me to this local rebuilder.  I was shocked.

[60Bubba]

One of the inquiries I made has possibly yielded a good option.  I found a T-19 used for $150 (supposedly in working order) that I can get to Memphis for $150 shipping from Kansas.  It is one of the rare 84-86 T19's that came behind the 4X4 Ford 460ci gas V-8 with the 6.32:1 first gear.  I have two different sources (Novak and a Borg Warner enthusiast site) that indicate this combination was available, but I have nothing other than the seller's word that it does in fact have the granny low first gear.

I've also decided to start looking at GM V8 swaps.  I thought I could find a palletized 350, 4.8L or 5.3L with transmission and PCM for $2,000 or so.  That opens a whole new can of worms, but I'm at least going to investigate.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...Sometimes worms are okay!  The GM V-8 swap would open several automatic and manual transmission possibilities, sticks using stock G.M. bellhousing/flywheel and clutch.  The 5.3L V-8 with a 4L60E would be similar to the Advance Adapters/TJ Wrangler video example.

These LS engines are good material and compact enough.  The 1987-up 350 truck TBI V-8 application would also be worth considering.  You say palletized, I'm guessing you mean a used, complete engine and transmission with all necessary peripheral parts?

On the LS V-8s there would be lower mileage than a 350 TBI engine unless you find an unusually low mileage package.  LS engines with port injection can be wired with an aftermarket street rod/crate engine harness and stock ECM.  This would ease the installation.

I'm curious what you turn up.  The palletized powertrain and an overdrive 700R4/4L60E would be great for the highway and off-road, though the 4:1 transfer case might still be a consideration for off-road crawling and compression braking.

The best 700R4 in terms of vital upgrades was 1989-up, keep that in mind...The 4L60E has those upgrades.

Moses

[60Bubba]

Moses,

What I turned up was nothing local; one place said they would keep an eye out and to expect $3,000+  Items on eBay were similar for an LS series, but I did find a couple older LT1's with 4L60E's out of Raodmasters, and other cars.  After talking over a full powertrain swap with the boss, we decided that now really isn't the time.  It doesn't look like I was going to save anything by the time I paid for motor mounts, a 4L60E to D300 adapter, radiator, etc.

I ended up pulling the trigger on a used T19.  I seem to have stumbled on one of the rare T19's that had the 6.32 first gear.  I knew they were supposedly out there, but I hadn't seen one.  I exchanged messages with the salvage yard and they confirmed again that it's the one I want.  I got a great price on it, so much so that I'll still be in the green even if I just use it for a core.

Once it arrives, I'll spin the input and verify the ratios.  Then I'll pull the cover and check gear conditions.  I'm hopeful this will work out well.  When I have a solid driveline, I'll revisit the powerplant.  I really like the idea of a stroker, so I will review your videos again and start trying to plan the build. I want to try to use my block and as many of my existing parts as possible (read: budget stroker) but I don't want to end up with a stratospheric compression ratio or overheating problems, so I'll follow your recommendations for a solid trail stroker (that may eventually have to pass CA emissions again.)

Pictures will follow when the gear box shows up.

[Moses Ludel]

60Bubba...Your boss and mine would get along famously.  With the new Nissan Titan diesel in the driveway, your bargaining position is weak.

Very happy that you found a T-19 at a reasonable fare!  We'll cross fingers on the box's condition and its compound low ratio.  You have both Advance Adapters and Novak as adapter options, confirm the front face pattern of the T-19 and the input gear's length, then determine which stock Jeep bellhousing will match.  This is a sensible budget point for your next step.

I'd like you to consider rebuilding this unit on your own.  You did the T-5 and have some seasoning now, and the T-19 with a professional grade service guide at your side could get the job done.  It's otherwise sublet labor for the build.  Again, the T-19 is not difficult to overhaul by the book, I'd be happy to 3rd base coach.  Your call...

This should add up to a very substantial gain for the Jeep CJ-7.  The rugged transmission will get your 1st gear ratio down low and also offer the prized and rare synchromesh!  You'll need to slow dramatically in low range before stuffing this box into first gear...though you shouldn't have to stop completely.

Looking forward to the photos, we'll go through the T-19 box visually.  The stroker 4.6L inline six down the road makes perfect sense for your intended usage.  Cost can be contained with use of your current engine/core and some sensible parts choices.  Shouldn't cost more than a quality 4.0L build and a 4.2L crankshaft core.  My type of build would easily pass CA smog as a "4.0L" engine with the Mopar EFI E.O. number.

Great way to start your new year!   Happy New Year...

Moses

[60Bubba]

Quick video of the gears turning.

IMG_2858.m4v