Jeep 4.0L Standalone Distributor Versus Fuel-and-Spark Management

[jeepstroker]

hi

what distributors you recommend for standalone jeep 4.0 ( with cam and crank sensor )

coil pack ( 6 )

[Moses Ludel]

Hi, jeepstroker...I like the HEI derivative distributors, a true standalone with easy wiring interface and room for a tach wire.

That said, the better ones in the market are the DUI unit and if you're somewhat Holiday budget constrained, the $149 Summit Racing version is cost-effective and gets decent reviews:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850047/overview/make/jeep

DUI for an AMC/Jeep inline six is $299 retail:  http://performancedistributors.com/product/amc-inline-6-cylinder-dui-distributor/

You get what you pay for, that said, Summit Racing is good about warranty and product issues.  DUI has quality billet and bearings.  There's also MSD, but the MSD #8516 requires an MSD control box, and the cost for the distributor plus the box is high.

Moses 

[jeepstroker]

 

17 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Hi, jeepstroker...I like the HEI derivative distributors, a true standalone with easy wiring interface and room for a tach wire.

That said, the better ones in the market are the DUI unit and if you're somewhat Holiday budget constrained, the $149 Summit Racing version is cost-effective and gets decent reviews:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850047/overview/make/jeep

DUI for an AMC/Jeep inline six is $299 retail:  http://performancedistributors.com/product/amc-inline-6-cylinder-dui-distributor/

You get what you pay for, that said, Summit Racing is good about warranty and product issues.  DUI has quality billet and bearings.  There's also MSD, but the MSD #8516 requires an MSD control box, and the cost for the distributor plus the box is high.

Moses 

but it will work distributor with coil pack 6 ls1 ??

what about crank and cam sensor ?

[Moses Ludel]

jeepstroker...The standalone distributors I mentioned will handle the ignition demands independent of a PCM or aftermarket ignition/fuel controller.  Does your Coil Pack IS1 require a crankshaft signal for the fuel distribution or ignition?  Is it looking for a camshaft position signal as well?

There is a big problem here.  You've talked about the use of an aftermarket spark/fuel controller.   (Is that the Coil Pack 6 IS1?)  If the controller is a program for fuel and spark management, there are fuel maps and ignition spark timing curves or algorithms built into the programmer's software.  Spark timing would be a function of the controller.  

If you install a standalone distributor, you lose the controller's spark management function.  The ignition then has a mechanical and vacuum spark timing that is rigid and linear, not infinitely variable like the OEM fuel-and-spark management.  OEM fuel-and-spark management relies on a number of engine sensors and their feedback to determine the right spark timing under a given set of engine loads, the throttle setting and engine speed characteristics.

So, if your aftermarket controller/PCM/ECU/ECM manages the fuel and spark timing, the engine needs either 1) coil packs similar to late OEM Jeep 4.0L engines or 2) a mechanical, camshaft driven distributor with a rotor, cap and spark plug wires to deliver the spark to each cylinder.  The mechanical distributor in this case,  like a typical Jeep 4.0L 1991-99 type for MPI engines with fuel-and-spark controlled by the PCM, simply delivers spark to each cylinder.  These MPI distributors do not have centrifugal advance or a vacuum advance spark timing device.  The actual spark timing at a given moment is controlled by the PCM/ECU/ECM and the distributor's ICM (ignition control module).

The trigger for the coil(s) to fire is either 1) an ICM in the distributor like the OEM Jeep method with a cap and rotor distributor and a single coil or 2) a TDC signal directly from a crank position sensor for #1 cylinder's TDC and use of an ignition module.  An aftermarket controller's software programming would determine the actual spark timing, using the #1 TDC signal from the crankshaft position sensor.  Other sensor signals may be required with aftermarket systems, items similar to OEM sensors like the temp, MAP, O2, manifold vacuum, air intake temp and so forth.  There is still a need to "distribute" the spark, either with a cap and rotor distributor like the 1991-99 MPI Jeep unit or through the controller.  The controller and its ignition module (either remote or built into the controller) would send firing signals to the six coil pack coils, following the firing order of the engine:  1-5-3-6-2-4.

Note: If your controller or engine management system needs a #1 cylinder TDC signal, that would be the crankshaft position sensor.  The distributor, even a standalone, would not provide a TDC signal.  A conventional/mechanical advance standalone distributor always requires a base timing like 4-8 degrees BTDC.  This is not TDC.  So these signals would be an unreliable signal for precise TDC.  As engine speed picks up, the mechanical advance moves the timing more degrees BTDC.  If the standalone has a vacuum advance canister (hooked to throttle valve ported vacuum and not to manifold vacuum), the spark timing swings even more degrees BTDC, with maximum vacuum spark advance at low speed throttle tip-in.  These are mechanical functions independent of the PCM/ECU/ECM or an aftermarket fuel-and-spark timing controller.

As for the cam position sensor, this is a part of the OEM Mopar PCM system.  The camshaft position sensor wants to confirm that the engine's valve timing and crankshaft position (#1 cylinder TDC) are within normal degree range.  If the camshaft is running late valve timing, let's say from a worn timing chain, the engine will throw a code.  That is the purpose of the camshaft position sensor.

If your engine is a 1991-up 4.0L Jeep/Mopar MPI type, you have either a stock cap and rotor distributor or a camshaft position sensor unit (used on 1999/2000-up coil-on-plug engines) to send a camshaft position signal to the PCM.  The 1991-99 OEM distributor mounts in a fixed housing position; this distributor doubles as the crankshaft position sensor.

Questions about your engine and this aftermarket coil pack system:

1) What year Jeep and 4.0L engine do you have here?  Now a stroker 4.6L build?  

2) Was your 4.0L or 4.6L stroker engine originally a coil-on-plug 1999/2000 or newer engine?  Or did you have a 1991-99 type distributor?  Do you have a PCM, and if so, what year PCM and wiring?

2) Please identify the manufacturer of this aftermarket coil pack system and which of its components you have here.  Does this aftermarket coil pack system work with just a TDC signal?  Does it need a camshaft position signal, too?

3) Is this aftermarket coil pack system just for ignition function, or does it operate as a complete fuel-and-spark management system? 

4) Does the aftermarket coil pack system need sensor input?  An ignition module?  Does it come with six coils, one mounting on each spark plug?  Does the aftermarket controller/box/PCM/ECU/ECM, whatever they're calling it, have a built-in ignition module?  

4) How is this coil pack system supposed to work?  Did it come with instructions?  If not, do you have a detailed explanation of how the system functions, installation instructions and wiring schematics?  Is this information available online at the company's website?  

Moses

[jeepstroker]

On 12/9/2016 at 9:44 PM, Moses Ludel said:

jeepstroker...The standalone distributors I mentioned will handle the ignition demands independent of a PCM or aftermarket ignition/fuel controller.  Does your Coil Pack IS1 require a crankshaft signal for the fuel distribution or ignition?  Is it looking for a camshaft position signal as well?

There is a big problem here.  You've talked about the use of an aftermarket spark/fuel controller.   (Is that the Coil Pack 6 IS1?)  If the controller is a program for fuel and spark management, there are fuel maps and ignition spark timing curves or algorithms built into the programmer's software.  Spark timing would be a function of the controller.  

If you install a standalone distributor, you lose the controller's spark management function.  The ignition then has a mechanical and vacuum spark timing that is rigid and linear, not infinitely variable like the OEM fuel-and-spark management.  OEM fuel-and-spark management relies on a number of engine sensors and their feedback to determine the right spark timing under a given set of engine loads, the throttle setting and engine speed characteristics.

So, if your aftermarket controller/PCM/ECU/ECM manages the fuel and spark timing, the engine needs either 1) coil packs similar to late OEM Jeep 4.0L engines or 2) a mechanical, camshaft driven distributor with a rotor, cap and spark plug wires to deliver the spark to each cylinder.  The mechanical distributor in this case,  like a typical Jeep 4.0L 1991-99 type for MPI engines with fuel-and-spark controlled by the PCM, simply delivers spark to each cylinder.  These MPI distributors do not have centrifugal advance or a vacuum advance spark timing device.  The actual spark timing at a given moment is controlled by the PCM/ECU/ECM and the distributor's ICM (ignition control module).

The trigger for the coil(s) to fire is either 1) an ICM in the distributor like the OEM Jeep method with a cap and rotor distributor and a single coil or 2) a TDC signal directly from a crank position sensor for #1 cylinder's TDC and use of an ignition module.  An aftermarket controller's software programming would determine the actual spark timing, using the #1 TDC signal from the crankshaft position sensor.  Other sensor signals may be required with aftermarket systems, items similar to OEM sensors like the temp, MAP, O2, manifold vacuum, air intake temp and so forth.  There is still a need to "distribute" the spark, either with a cap and rotor distributor like the 1991-99 MPI Jeep unit or through the controller.  The controller and its ignition module (either remote or built into the controller) would send firing signals to the six coil pack coils, following the firing order of the engine:  1-5-3-6-2-4.

Note: If your controller or engine management system needs a #1 cylinder TDC signal, that would be the crankshaft position sensor.  The distributor, even a standalone, would not provide a TDC signal.  A conventional/mechanical advance standalone distributor always requires a base timing like 4-8 degrees BTDC.  This is not TDC.  So these signals would be an unreliable signal for precise TDC.  As engine speed picks up, the mechanical advance moves the timing more degrees BTDC.  If the standalone has a vacuum advance canister (hooked to throttle valve ported vacuum and not to manifold vacuum), the spark timing swings even more degrees BTDC, with maximum vacuum spark advance at low speed throttle tip-in.  These are mechanical functions independent of the PCM/ECU/ECM or an aftermarket fuel-and-spark timing controller.

As for the cam position sensor, this is a part of the OEM Mopar PCM system.  The camshaft position sensor wants to confirm that the engine's valve timing and crankshaft position (#1 cylinder TDC) are within normal degree range.  If the camshaft is running late valve timing, let's say from a worn timing chain, the engine will throw a code.  That is the purpose of the camshaft position sensor.

If your engine is a 1991-up 4.0L Jeep/Mopar MPI type, you have either a stock cap and rotor distributor or a camshaft position sensor unit (used on 1999/2000-up coil-on-plug engines) to send a camshaft position signal to the PCM.  The 1991-99 OEM distributor mounts in a fixed housing position; this distributor doubles as the crankshaft position sensor.

Questions about your engine and this aftermarket coil pack system:

1) What year Jeep and 4.0L engine do you have here?  Now a stroker 4.6L build?

jeep stroker 4.9 

2) Was your 4.0L or 4.6L stroker engine originally a coil-on-plug 1999/2000 or newer engine?  Or did you have a 1991-99 type distributor?  Do you have a PCM, and if so, what year PCM and wiring?

originally type distributor 1995 ... i have haltech with coil-on-plug ls1

2) Please identify the manufacturer of this aftermarket coil pack system and which of its components you have here.  Does this aftermarket coil pack system work with just a TDC signal?  Does it need a camshaft position signal, too?

oem ls1 coil ... they need tdc signal + cam signal

3) Is this aftermarket coil pack system just for ignition function, or does it operate as a complete fuel-and-spark management system? 

it's haltech system with ls1 coils

4) Does the aftermarket coil pack system need sensor input?  An ignition module?  Does it come with six coils, one mounting on each spark plug?  Does the aftermarket controller/box/PCM/ECU/ECM, whatever they're calling it, have a built-in ignition module? 

no .. only ignition signal from ecu

4) How is this coil pack system supposed to work?  Did it come with instructions?  If not, do you have a detailed explanation of how the system functions, installation instructions and wiring schematics?  Is this information available online at the company's website?  

it work with 3 wire .... earth + v12 + signal

Moses

haltech system need crank and cam signal

now i use jeep distributor 1995 with nissan distributor (mix )

[Moses Ludel]

Okay...So now what you need is your original TDC signal from the crankshaft position sensor at the back of the engine (mounted at the 11 o'clock opening on the converter/bellhousing).  If you have a notched or hall effect OEM type flywheel or flexplate to create a CPS signal, you have your crankshaft TDC signal.  Note the OEM wires that come from the CPS and determine which wire provides the needed Haltech signal for TDC.

If you also need a camshaft position signal, get a 1999-2006 coil-on-plug (COP) type Jeep 4.0L OEM camshaft position sensor assembly.  This "Oil Pump Drive" replaced the 1991-99 type distributor.  The later COP engines no longer need a distributor with cap, rotor and wires, and this oil pump drive with camshaft sensor became the signal for the camshaft position.  (The 1995 ignition distributor drove the oil pump; with OBDII in 1996-99, the distributor also provided the source for a camshaft position signal.)

In this Mopar parts diagram for the 4.0L COP engine, part #2 is the camshaft position sensor, part #5 is the "Oil Pump Drive" which replaces the older ignition distributor's oil pump drive function.  As an assembly, you have an oil pump drive with a camshaft position sensor:

  Jeep 4.0L COP Oil Pump Drive with Camshaft Sensor.pdf

Note:  Look at a 2000-2006 4.0L Jeep engine.  (Mopar started using coil-on-plug/COP in the 1999 WJ Grand Cherokee engines then the XJ and TJ in 2000-up engines.)  In the place of a distributor, you will find the OEM oil pump drive and camshaft position sensor assembly.  The device goes into position just like your original distributor and drives the oil pump.  

The OEM COP oil pump drive/camshaft position sensor drive gear, shaft and housing must be clocked properly in order to read valve timing correctly.  The camshaft position sensor/oil pump drive indexes with the camshaft drive teeth, and the bottom tang of the oil pump drive shaft indexes with the oil pump.  The relationship is similar to your earlier distributor, camshaft and oil pump;  the Mopar coil-on-plug 4.0L engines use the camshaft position sensor to monitor timing chain wear and check for abnormal valve timing.

You do not need an aftermarket standalone distributor.  You do not need a distributor.  You will need to determine the output wiring from the 1999-2000 coil-on-plug/COP Mopar camshaft position sensor to make sure you're getting the signal that Haltech wants for camshaft position.

Moses

[jeepstroker]

hello moses again

......................................................

i have another project and i need your advise .... i will install ecu standalone with factory jeep 4.0 1991 / 1999 xj harness

type of ignition : distributor / one coil ( factory )

.......................................................................................

my question is : can i use factory distributor and crank signal ? 

[Moses Ludel]

jeepstroker...So, you want to use a 1991-99 Jeep distributor and trigger it from a stock 1991-99 Jeep PCM?  On these systems, all spark timing control is from the Jeep PCM.  The distributor has a fixed position with no centrifugal or vacuum advance units.

I would guess this could work if all of the (OEM-type) sensors and their feedback are sufficient to advance and retard timing accurately, resisting detonation/ping, etc.  You're not firing injectors from this PCM if I understand your question.  You want the ignition to "stand alone" but still be triggered by a Jeep/stock type PCM?  

The PCM is looking for a TDC at #1 cylinder signal to start the entire timing process.  Unless you have some other type of crank position sensor that is compatible, you would need the OEM crank position sensor (CPS) or a HESCO aftermarket front damper pulley with a HESCO remote crank trigger.  If you're using a 1991-up Jeep flywheel or flexplate with a bellhousing or converter housing that has a mounting point for a CPS, this could be a reliable PCM signal for #1 cylinder TDC.

Note: If you have an aftermarket ECU/injection system that is also capable of triggering ignition functions, confirm with the ECU manufacturer whether the stock Jeep distributor is a candidate for receiving these timing signals. 

Moses