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Moses,

You have been an incredible source of information to me. I recently (several months ago) had my 1985 258 professionally rebuilt.  It was balanced, torque plated etc etc.  You helped me then.  My 1985 CJ7 is completely stock, no changes seem to have been made.  Components are all original to this jeep and are OEM.  Currently the 258 is on an engine stand and I have removed the trans and T case.  The T5 and Dana 300 are now sitting on my bench.   I have watched the Dana 300 rebuild here and of course have your Rebuilders Guide.  I feel comfortable with the Dana 300 rebuild and intend to do so.  FYI: I will be having East Coast Gear change my D30 and AMC 20 from 2.73 to probably 3.73. I have no intention for hard wheeling nor do I want tires larger than 31 inches diameter.  My Jeep will be mostly on the highway and occasionally on a Jeep like trail and snow.  No hard wheeling of any kind.

There are so many places on the web that will rebuild my T5 for around $950, all good, but I want my specific transmission (1352-077) to remain with this vehicle as from the factory. I would also like to build my experience with transmissions.

I am willing to buy all necessary tools and parts to rebuild correctly.  Arbor press, pullers, bearing installers....it doesn't matter.  When finished, I will have an excellent rebuild and all the tools.  Henry Ford said:  "If you need a tool and don't buy it...you'll eventually pay for it...and not have it".  I am a firm believer.

I have the T5 FSM.  I have attached a huge video file (32 mb) of my input shaft movement.  VID_20160520_182156231.mp4

If I send ,lots of pictures etc can you help me rebuild my T5?

Reid

 

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Reid,

Looks like you and I are going through the same process right now.  I have an '83, and it was getting pretty difficult to shift.  If you check the threads in the classic 1972-1986 CJ section, you'll see a brief exchange I had with Moses.  I had similar input shaft play, and what Moses said along with some additional research I did makes me think most of that lateral play is due to the snout of the shaft not being supported in the pilot bushing.  It seems like the critical issue on these transmissions is end (fore and aft) play.  Mine has some of that as well.  I'm hoping by catching it now I can salvage the gearbox.

I think you have a very good handle on the tools you will need, though I would add a good set of digital calipers and a dial indicator to the list.  I did my ale gears last fall, so the press and pullers are already in my inventory.  I got a full rebuild kit and trans assembly lube (expensive petroleum jelly, I think) from The Gear Box.  I also sourced a front bearing retainer from AMP on Amazon.  Mine had some major gouges and deep wear on the tube; no idea how that happened.

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Hi Bubba,

Thanks for the information.  I plan to follow FSM and buy tools as I come to them so to speak.  If you don't have the CJ T5 FSM I will be glad to send it to you as PDF.

Yeah I knew I needed the cailipers and dial indicator.  When I last drove my 85, I had no detectable issues, but since I've got the motor, T case, and T5 out of the Jeep now is a good time to rebuild. I plan to start pretty soon, but am first going to rebuild the T case.

Lets keep in touch, let me know about the factory service manual.

Reid

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Reid and 60Bubba...Happy to drop into the discussion when necessary.  The FSM is a tremendous help.  I can translate the esoteric details and help with diagnosis/inspection and other details.

Play at the input gear nose is likely front bearing and input counterbore bearing related.  Without support at the crankshaft pilot, this movement in itself is not conclusive of damage.  

If you will supply detailed photos and concerns, we can go from there...Consolation:  The T-5 is easier and far less busy to build than an AX15!

Moses

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Reid,

Thanks for the offer, but I do have the Jeep T5 manual.  I also found a clean PDF copy of the Tremec manual. It has tear down and rebuild for the standard T5 like ours, as well as the World Class T5.  

A guy named Paul Cangialosi used to custom build a "World Class" T5 for the Jeep, but I guess the three guys in the entire country that wanted one didn't meet his minimum demand :)

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Thanks Moses and Bubba,

Moses it will be excellent to have you take a look at components and help me decide what needs replacement.  Also advice on the " esoteric details" often overlooked or assumed in manuals will be extremely valuable. I'm now looking forward to this instead of being afraid to attempt it.

Bubba, thanks for your help.  I will locate a copy of the Tremc manual, will help to compare to FSM.  

I'll be in touch when I get started.

Reid

 

Edited by Reid
doubled reply

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60Bubba and Reid...As for the World Class T5, Advance Adapters sold these as new upgrade units years ago.  The supply ran out.  For those unfamiliar, the T5 "World Class" was available in Ford Mustang H.O. packages during the '80s.  This transmission held up far better and was torque rated for the H.O. 5.0L engine.  The Jeep CJ T5 falls short, and you both have gotten "exceptional" service from your transmissions, a testimony to your driving skills and kindness to the transmission.  

For a stock 4.0L or the original 4.2L inline sixes, the T5 can hold up okay.  A 4.6L stroker build would demand more, and for a stroker build, I'd likely do an NV4500 5-speed truck transmission swap as described in my Jeep CJ Rebuilder's Manual: 1972-86.  Overdrive is valuable and helpful for fuel efficiency.  An AX15 can be retrofitted but requires a lot of parts and effort, including "clocking" the Dana 300 transfer case to the AX15.

Moses

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On 5/21/2016 at 0:35 PM, Reid said:

Hi Bubba,

Thanks for the information.  I plan to follow FSM and buy tools as I come to them so to speak.  If you don't have the CJ T5 FSM I will be glad to send it to you as PDF.

Yeah I knew I needed the cailipers and dial indicator.  When I last drove my 85, I had no detectable issues, but since I've got the motor, T case, and T5 out of the Jeep now is a good time to rebuild. I plan to start pretty soon, but am first going to rebuild the T case.

Lets keep in touch, let me know about the factory service manual.

Reid

Reid,

It's hung up on my thread in the 1972-1886 CJ area, but for ease of locating, here is the Tremec manual.  Make sure you refer to the STD T5 sections, not the WC World Class T5 sections.

 

Tremec T5 Manual.pdf

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Got it!  Thanks 60Bubba.  I'm going to get my bench cleaned off to have adequate space and then I'm going to begin the disassembly.

Reid

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Hi Guys

Hope I can jump in. I am in the process of going through my D-300, T-5, and clutch on my 85 CJ.

My background in this area consists of the Dana 20 T-case and T-150 transmission.

I plan to address the following issues.

1. Infamous twin stick D-300 jumping out on down grades.

2. Fluid leak from the rear of the T-5. The T-5 otherwise shifts good and no unexpected sounds. Hope to find nothing that can't be fixed.

3. Clutch and flywheel replacement while I am down that far.

This month I am in the process of gathering the parts. Hope to finalize the order by the end of the week.

My list includes:

Advance Adapters Dana 300 Master Kit.

JB Conversions shift rail springs

T-5 Master Kit. (so far I am looking at the Crown "T5MASKIT") Any Comments?

Centerforce II clutch kit including cover, friction disk, release bearing, and pilot bushing. I am already using the AA chain linkage setup.

AMS Flywheel.

Next Month I will be gathering the specialty tools and starting the removal.

I have plenty of documentation, including your books Moses, and have also viewed Paul Cangialosi's videos along with several D-300 videos.

If I run into trouble, I hope you guys will jump in and help me work through it. :)

Moses, any advise on parts selection or additional parts will be appreciated.

William

P.S. Bubba, how is you new transmission coming?

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William H...I like your parts sources, traditional and reliable.  As for the T-5 master kit from Crown or Omix-ADA could be among the last sources for T-5 parts unless you use an NOS source like Northwest Transmission Parts or Border Parts.  These transmissions have fallen out of the usual U.S. source parts lines, old enough to not qualify as mandatory replacement parts, either.  Crown is likely offshore replica pieces, which is not necessarily a negative, the issue is always metallurgy, machining and proper heat treatment of gears, shafts and other parts.  Bearings are common and can be sourced to your manufacturer preference.

I've always liked the Centerforce II as you know from my books.  The Dana 300 detailed rebuild in the CJ manual will prove helpful.  Use a factory-level workshop manual or equivalent for the T-5 rebuild instructions, you should have no issues if you follow the official disassembly and assembly method.

Keep us posted, photos would be great for members who want or need to follow along...Happy New Year!

Moses

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FYI Update

Just received the Crown Master T5 rebuild kit.

Main Shaft bearings are Timken USA.

Front Countershaft bearing is KOYO USA.

Rear Countershaft bearing has no visible marking.

Radial thrust roller bearings have no visible markings. (really no room for markings)

Front oil seal made in USA.

Rear oil seal has no visible marking.

Parts Count: as marketed

Out of the box satisfaction: very good

William

 

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All sounds good, William...If the countershaft rear bearing needs a closer look, the design may make it difficult to identify the source.

Glad that Crown offers this kind of quality.  Thanks for sharing, others will find this information useful when sourcing parts!

Moses

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Homemade T-5 Snap Ring Pliers.

Seems to be difficult to find a set of external eyeless snap ring pliers at a reasonable price. I was lucky enough to have 2 sets of Blue Point external ring pliers and was able to craft one of them to work. Just a few minutes with a Dremal tool. Used the new snap rings in the T-5 master kit for a pattern. Shorter distance from the pivot point takes advantage of thicker tool metal and better leverage on the larger snap rings.

DSCN1403.JPG

DSCN1405.JPG

William

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Like those angles on the tips to provide parallel faces to the ring.  Nice!  You left enough material to keep from breaking the tips off the tool, too...

Moses

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First Look. Got it pulled this morning.

Seems like previous owners found some deep and muddy water at some point. On to clean up.

DSCN1406.JPG

Now for the first unexpected hoop.

I broke the transmission to bell housing bolts loose very carefully by hand. However the lower right bolt had almost no resistance. Once remove, what appears to be an old helicoil was attached to the end of the bolt. Visual inspection of the hole in the bell housing reveal little to no thread definition except for the very last 5% of the hole. Further inspection revealed the upper right hole has damaged threads but was holding, however I am not comfortable with it.

Moses, what course of action do you recommend?

DSCN1411.JPG

I have some ideas, one of them is to have a machine shop to make and install double threaded steel bushings with a small shoulder on the back side of the hole, threaded in and held in place with industrial adhesive.

The caveman solution in my mind would be to carefully ream the holes to the allow the 7/16" standard size bolt to just pass through. Then on the back side of the holes create a 1/8" deep recess wide enough for the head of a 7/16" bolt to nest. Then select 7/16" bolts long enough to be used as studs. Hold the bolts/studs in place with industrial adhesive around the shoulders and the nested heads. Small irregularities in the outer edge of the 1/8" recess in combination with the head of the bolt will increase holding power. Small scoring of the shoulders may also increase holding strength. Since the very last threads of the stripped hole appear to be intact, I feel there is enough "meat" in the bell housing to create the 1/8" recesses without compromising strength.

Whatever action implemented needs to be a permanent solution with no worry of failure if future disassembly is required and better than OEM. What ideas do you have? Most likely a much simpler one.

William

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Thanks Reid

That option is still on the table @ $300 for a new one. Used ones most likely have the same or similar issues as mine.

Another option would be to tap the holes for 1/2", enlarge the holes in the transmission and use 1/2" allen head bolts.

Both options still would be subject to thread galling or stripping of the housing.

After further inspection, it appears the coil in the photo above is actually the threads not a stripped helicoil as it is not attracted to a magnet.

Thanks

William

 

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Hi William,

Yeah they are a bit expensive, but it is easy for me to spend your money!  Drilling and tapping the housing may not bring "piece of mind."  I based my recommendation on your statement " a permanent solution with no worry of failure if future disassembly is required and better than OEM".  I hear you.  I like to do things that way myself.  

It is my understanding that properly installed Helicoils would be stronger and a better "fix" than drilling and tapping aluminum.  I do not have any experience installing Helicoils...yet.  I am also aware of others experience that even when the transmission to bell housing bolts are properly torqued to 55 ft Lbs the bolts can strip.  Plus with a Helicoil you are no longer dealing with aluminum threads.

I wonder if installing helicoils and studs in the bell housing would be a good upgrade?

I will look forward to learning something when Moses responds.

Thanks for sharing your progress.

Reid 

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William and Reid...Just caught this topic...My approach would be a Time-Sert repair.  I have done these as absolutely permanent cures on spark plug threads and other applications.  Time-Sert is superior in every way to a Heli-Coil.  Here is the website:

http://www.timesert.com/

At the magazine site, I have two videos on Time-Sert repairs for our XR650R Honda motorcycle.  One is the spark plug threads, the other is a swing arm adjuster that was frozen and took the threads out of the swing arm ($300 part and pain to replace).  There is no better repair than a Time-Sert, these products are used for main cap and axle cap threads.  Tough stuff and in many cases better than OEM.  Especially on Ford Triton engine spark plug thread repairs.

http://www.4wdmechanix.com/HD-Video-How-to-Time-Sert-Repair-for-Damaged-Spark-Plug-Threads?r=1

http://www.4wdmechanix.com/moses-ludels-4wd-mechanix-magazine-how-to-dirt-motorcycle-final-drive-chain-and-sprockets-replacement/

Only obstacle is cost for a one-time repair.  Weigh the kit cost against the cost of a bellhousing.  I'd get enough Time-Sert thread sleeves to do all four threads on your OEM bellhousing.  It would be better than new.

Moses

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William,

Let me know if the thread repair doesn't pan out.  I have my T5 bellhousing sitting on the garage floor.  I'm happy to give it a good home at a fair price.  No thread issues that I've noticed, and I've had it off and on twice in the last few months.

Case

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Thank you both Reid and Moses.

The Time-Sert solution for all 4 holes has moved to the front seat. I took a quick peak at their web site and Moses' recommendation sealed the deal. It sounds a lot like my first proposal of a machine shop making double threaded bushings with a shoulder.

I have family functions tomorrow and will start digging into the "nuts and bolts" of Time-Sert later. I may postpone a final decision/purchase until I inspect the T5 transmission case for damaged threads as it has several blind aluminum threaded holes.

Thank you Case ever so much for your bell housing offer. I will definitely keep it in mind. Hope your transmission project is moving forward?

William

 

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Yes the Time Sert sounds like the way to go.  In fact, I'm thinking of installing them even if I have seemingly good threads in my bell housing.  Those bell housing threads are a known weak spot.

Excellent info Moses.

Reid

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As you can tell, I'm a big Time-Sert fan...Pending project:  The Honda XR650R right crankcase cover over the oil filter is a known weak thread area, 6 x 20 millimeter bolts with 1mm pitch blind holes in the crankcase.  Notorious for stripping.  I'm planning on Time-Sert for each of these crankcase threads, stainless is permanent and much stronger for this application plus corrosion resistance.

I learned about the Time-Sert approach from an automotive machinist who rescued vintage, high performance muscle car engine blocks with pulled main cap threads.  The first time I saw this applied in cast iron and aluminum block webs, I was sold.  Jeep bellhousing threads are a piece of cake.

60Bubba, thanks for being there for William on your removed T-5 bellhousing.  It's certainly an option, though we all know the vulnerability of aluminum bellhousings and their threads!

On that note, you might consider Time-Sert for your T-19 bellhousing...The only downside is cost, Time-Sert sleeves require the tooling package.  Just a thought...

Moses

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I was able to completely disassemble the T5 today. The good news is there are no chipped teeth and the point definition is good on all the gears. Even the blocking rings show very little wear. There was no detectable in/output shaft movement.

There was a little seepage around the front countershaft bearing and maybe around the front retainer gasket where it over laps the front countershaft bearing. Front input shaft itself was dry.

The main oil leak was around the rear seal. You can see there is not much seal left. The transfer case input shaft was smooth with no detectable play.

DSCN1413.JPG

Now for the bad news.

The oiling funnel, thrust bearing, and thrust race were laying in the bottom of the tail housing. I can only assume from improper assembly. The bearing and race are included in the master kit. The oiling funnel is a different story. Unable to find a source!

DSCN1414.JPG

The next problem may be related to the previous. Neither the new or the old thrust race will nest into the recess of the tail housing. They both are slightly too large in diameter.

You can also see where the 5th gear assembly was wearing against the aluminum on the tail housing.

Hope somebody can shed some light here.

DSCN1422.JPG

Hare to see, but this picture shows the thrust bearing and race unable to nest and center into the tail housing.

DSCN1423.JPG

The next issue and it is good news/bad news. There was only one case bolt stripped out. It is the bolt on the very bottom of the case facing backwards into the tail section. That can be dealt with.

Finally, it appears that the front retainer was installed upside down. The picture in orientated with up as it was installed toward the top of the picture.  It is my understanding the shorter/thicker slot goes on top. Also in orientation as pictured and installed, the oil passages were not aligned top to bottom.

DSCN1434.JPG

Hope someone will be able to suggest a solution for the destroyed oiling funnel and get me straight on the rear thrust bearing and race being slightly too large in diameter to nest into the tail housing.

William

 

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William, the unit has been apart, obvious from the two-tone RTV sealant.  For the sake of your project and others, Here are PDF schematics from the FSM for your Jeep CJ model.  I included the T-4 and the T-5.  You can see that your parts orientation is correct for the Torrington bearing and race at the rear of the counter gear.  Zoom-in on parts #31 to #35 in the T-5 schematic blowout, look carefully at each part and its relationship to the others.

Not sure why the bearing race won't fit the cavity.  I even compared your T-5 race to the T-4 race, they use the same parts layout, many parts interchange, and I wanted to see if you might have a T-4 adapter on your transmission.  The races and needle/Torrington bearing are the same for T-4 and T-5 adapters.  

Here is a Mopar parts blowout for your T-5 gear set for reference:  Jeep T-5 Gear Layout.pdf.  Zoom-in for details, this is also an excellent parts orientation.

Jeep T-4 Transmission Parts Blowout.pdf

Jeep T-5 Transmission Parts Blowout Page 1.pdf

Jeep T-5 Transmission Parts Blowout Page 2.pdf

Moses

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Thanks Moses,

It is my understanding the thrust bearing and race in question primary function is to limit the countershaft end play. I took a chance as the race would almost fit into the recess. I seated the race with a seal driver and dead blow hammer. It went all the way down with a some effort. The bearing turns free and easy in the race. I will pay VERY close attention during assembly making sure there is proper clearance on the countershaft by dry fitting it the tail housing before installing the main shaft. Except for the three parts that were laying in the bottom of the tail housing, the countershaft stack was assembled as diagramed. I can see that these parts could easily dislodge during assembly.

I was up late last night reading NWC T5 threads. Seems like there are significant number of people running the transmission without the oiling funnel.

Spent several hours today removing old RTV with a gasket scraper, kitchen scrubber, and elbow grease.

Will "Super 300" be the proper method for sealing the front countershaft bearing? Other weapons on my belt include Loctite 518, 242 and RTV Black,  DynaPlus, RTV, and Permatex Ultra Black.

Do you recommend Loctite 242 to seal the threads on through case bolts such as used by the front retainer and some of the tail housing bolts?

William

 

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William...The Torrington/needle bearing race is now tightly seated in its bore, and that's a good thing.  If you need to buy the oiling funnel, or its snap ring and other NOS parts, try Northwest Transmission Parts at Ohio (http://www.nwtparts.com/) or possibly MIT at El Cajon, California.  Border Parts at Spring Valley, California would be another possible source...I would not leave the funnel out.  It has a function.

If the front bearing is sealed on the case side and needs sealant around its seating bore, Super 300 would work well.  But see what Tremec has to say.  They may find RTV sealant okay, in which case, take your pick.

Super 300 is a traditional product and has served well for decades.  RTV has been the modern replacement, and I like the newer Superflex Blue by Loctite.  I use anaerobic sealer where recommended, like the NV4500 front bearing retainer.  My preference is Loctite 518, which would likely work well on the front countershaft bearing:  

http://www.loctite.com.au/3320_AUE_HTML.htmnodeid=8802626633729

Any of your RTVs and the 242 Threadlocker would work well on a manual transmission, I like the Permatex/Loctite products.  "Getting by" with lesser RTVs is foolish, nobody wants to take these units apart due to a sealant issue.

As for 242 on through bolts, I do use 242 and 271 as double insurance:  thread locker and sealant combined.  For an alternative on through bolts with lock washers or a toothed flange head, I will use Loctite 592 Slow Cure Thread Sealant on threads exposed to heat, oil and coolant:   https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-592-Threadlocker-Tensile-Strength/dp/B005P3K1FG/ref=pd_day0_328_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GH3RBZ2F315S9GKF9JB1.  

592 cures as an adhesive and can actually cinch hardware over time.  (The story goes that engine heat adds to the thread locking ability, and this is the factory sealant on head bolt threads that square off with coolant.)  I use 592 sparingly on oil galley pipe plug threads.  As with any sealant, always apply it in a manner that does not end up in a cooling system, the engine oiling system or inside the transmission.  Wipe sealant off the exposed ends of through bolts;  I restrict 592 to the threads.

I'm not encouraging a rush to buy more sealants, as this stuff has become very expensive in recent years.  Part of this is its use by OEMs, which fostered a ready market and eventual price inflation due to OE recommendations and standards.

Also, be sure to use cut ("paper") gaskets on transmission fit-ups that require them.  Eliminating a required gasket may cause damage, like damaging the front bearing retainer when it gets squeezed too tightly over a bearing snap ring.  Where your T-5 does not require gaskets, don't use them.  When a gasket is required, consider the gasket much like a shim, part of the original design of the transmission, transfer case, etc.  By the mid-'80s, RTV sealant had become the norm, and most parts have a virtual "interference fit" with nothing more than RTV between their faces.

Note:  The early Willys/Jeep Model 18 Spicer transfer case to transmission adapter gasket was notorious for leaking over time.  The paper-cut gasket would suffer from torque and twisting, flexing between the transmission and transfer case, loosening split ring lock washers on bolts and poor gasket material.  Leaks invariably developed.

I'm old enough to remember the use of Indian Head Gasket shellac and Type 1 & 2 Permatex.  I would rarely use either of these products today, although they worked very well in the day.  Super 300 remains an excellent sealant for gear and coolant flanges and hardware, though clean-up is messier with the use of alcohol.

Moses

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Top cover cleaned, reassembled, and ready for action.

DSCN1447.JPG

Input Bearing getting the squeeze. The old bearing race is helping out.

DSCN1444.JPG

Front Countershaft Bearing going down. Loctite 518 used to seal. Seal driver ensures it seats flush with the housing.

DSCN1445.JPG

The magnet is getting a new grip courtesy JB Weld.

DSCN1446.JPG

Front Retainer cleaned. Note: in order to prevent accidental seal damage, the front seal will not be installed until final assembly, after the bearing preload is set.

DSCN1448.JPG

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NIce technique, proper tooling and sensible innovation, William!  Good work...This should be a winning T-5, maybe not 'World Class' H.O. Mustang level but certainly as good as the Jeep CJ version gets!  This transmission really needed your help and attention to detail, like our "new" Border Collie/Australian Shepherd mix, you rescued it!

Your photos are stellar, thanks for the great work there.  I like your use of 518 on the front bearing, no place for a leak...You'll be happy with the seal and confident that the sealant cured in the absence of air (anaerobic!)...Nice work!

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Rusty...Story goes he lived at a dairy, his master passed.  If so, he must have been outside all the time and sleeping on haystacks.  He's around 18 months and had no clue what a house might be.  Ran into the glass sliding door (fortunately didn't hurt himself), slid on the floors, scrambled when a toilet flushed...He came home with us between Sierra snowstorms on December 17th, a 300 mile round trip to get him from the rescue facility...He's smart as can be and coming along now.  Takes patience, kinda like a T-5 build, though you know it will pay off!

20161220_104043.jpg

"So, this is Starbucks?"  Rusty was expecting a herd of cows, flock of sheep or maybe some cattle...Best I could do was a brisk walk in frigid air to coffee...Rusty's rough around the edges, had never been on a leash, but he's a definite keeper.  We expect to have him in top form by Moab EJS!

Moses

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Thanks, Reid...Yes, we are very lucky, Rusty responded quickly to our affection and care.  He returns it in kind...Thanks to the many other folks who take the time to work with rescue dogs and provide them with great homes.  

After years of bright and faithful Irish Setters, Golden Retrievers and a wonderful Lab, each raised from 49-days, we homed our first rescue dog in 2009, an Australian Tri-Mix Shepherd.  Maggie was 10 years old and still fully in the game, she filled our home with her grace, intelligence and affection for six full years.  That drew us to the breed line, and when Rusty popped up on the 'net, we were ready!

Didn't mean to interrupt William's flow, his photos of the T-5 build provide a real service to builders...

Moses

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Rusty is a very lucky dog!

Finally found a source for the oiling funnel today from Bearing Kit.com. Finding the OEM part# "1352-034-001" made it easier.

Front countershaft thrust washer properly orientated with offset in the case slot. Assembly lube holds it in place. Ooops! don't look, seems like the camera picked up a dirt spot on the side of the case. At this point in the assembly process, best left undisturbed.

DSCN1450.thumb.JPG.0fedbf832e4a0519fa77bf9ee562e426.JPG

Installing the rear countershaft bearing. Easy does it, making sure to stop with no end play and free countershaft spin.

DSCN1451.thumb.JPG.4471e1e280857fb15903662414db0618.JPG

Orientate the thrust washer with the square edge toward the snap ring groove and the rounded edge toward the bearing.

This provides maximum holding power against lateral forces between the washer and snap ring.

DSCN1452.thumb.JPG.fd755bb7562637faa0d484ef645b8a51.JPG 

For ease of future removal, always orientate the wide part of the snap ring opening toward the part it is retaining.

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Thrust washer and snap ring seated.

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Reverse Idler gear installed.

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Fifth gear syncro cleaned and ready to be assembled with new springs, blocking ring, keys, and retainer. Syncro sliders and keys always seem to collect transmission sludge commonly called mud.

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Fifth gear assembled. Hard to see, but notice the alignment marks on the sliders made before disassembly in about the 7 o'clock position of this picture. 

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Three - Four syncro cleaned and ready for assembly. New springs and keys. Look close and you can see this slider still has very point definition.

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Three - Four syncro assembled. Here again, use the alignment marks made before disassembly.

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One - Two syncro cleaned and installed on the main shaft. Nice point definition here too. Considering 282K miles on the odometer, I can't imagine these are the original gears. MAJOR work was done about 16K miles ago. Don't forget the alignment marks. Don't forget to install the little detent ball and spring that goes under the slider. Use assembly lube to hold it place during installation.

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Pressing on the three - four syncro. Easy does it, making sure the blocking ring notches are aligned with the syncro keys.DSCN1461.thumb.JPG.3974c982951647ecf0ef9fe54de6fc86.JPG

The small groove in the three - four syncro is toward the front of the transmission.

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The completed main stack.

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William's photos are fantastic, use of orientation marks during tear down help tremendously—as long as the unit is original and has not been taken apart before.  Always pay closest attention to the synchronizer retainer spring orientations.  Barring tolerance or parts alignment trouble, the most common re-do for any manual transmission rebuild is the keys popping out of the synchros when the springs are not assembled in their proper positions and orientation.  

Note:  See the Tremec footnotes on positioning the synchro keys and retainer springs.  Every transmission is different, don't second guess this step!  

This transmission will work very well, I am appreciative that you are sharing these steps and the high-caliber graphics!  Thanks much, William, I know how much extra time it takes when you're engrossed in assembly steps and need to take photos!

Moses

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Thanks Moses,

Before my retirement, I was the Chief Engineer for the Kentucky Emergency Warning System. I am restricted to what I can say, but in short, this is a hardened cutting edge digital IP based statewide microwave communications network that provides broadcast and backhaul services for public safety first responders in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. One of my many responsibilities included creating and performing formal technical training. Preparation and attention to detail was job one. It was my pleasure to serve the citizens of the Commonwealth for 32 years.

Moses, you are correct about the spring placement. There are some very good and some very bad U-Tubes out there. I highly recommend the two part series on the WC T-5 produced by Eric the Car Guy and Paul Cangialosi. Mr. Cangialosi has built nearly 3K T-5's. The NWC T-5 springs use the same procedure. I watched one video that went on for several hours that included beer breaks. Don't think that T-5 will ever be right again. Sometimes the wrong way illustrated is a helpful tool as well.

In short, the most important point is for the hooked end of each spring to be caught on the same key and going in opposite directions. Take pictures during the whole T-5 disassembly process!! Use Ziploc bags to group parts as they are disassembled.

With either side of the syncro face up, and all three keys dropped into place, place the hooked end of the first spring in the underside opening of any key and work the spring counterclockwise under the other two keys. Carefully turn the syncro over, placing the other side face up. Place the hooked end of the second spring in the same key as the first spring. Again, work the second spring counterclockwise under the other two keys. When completed, verify that all three keys and both springs are properly nested. The one - two syncro is a little different due to the main shaft being in the way, but the process is the same. Even though you wind both springs CCW, if you look closely they are going in opposite directions. Handle carefully until the blocking rings or retainer can hold the springs and keys in place.

William

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William...I had the idea your background included attention to detail!  Know the feeling...

Glad you found the T-5 oiling funnel, there's a reason for it.  You don't need oil starvation issues.  Thanks for clarifying the T-5 synchronizer springs orientation, helpful to other builders.  That's the detail needed here!

I'm enjoying your build and camera work.  A great service for others...

Moses

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Moses,

I know three topics that should never be discussed on open forums are religion, politics, and oil. Well I am going to touch the 3rd rail of forums and bring up transmission oil.

I completely understand the WC T5's use ATF fluid exclusively. We need to narrow the focus of our discussion to NWC T5's in CJs.

There is so much discussion out there about what to use ranging from ATF to 75w90 gear oil. The main consensus is GL5 class gear oils have additives that are harmful to the brass blocking rings. 

I have heard that Tremec now recommends 30wt ND motor oil, others say Tremec now recommends 50wt gear oil, and others say Tremec now recommendations 70wt gear oil.

Dextron II is what was originally recommended and is no longer available.

Some say Dextron III is thinner but will work.

Some say to use full synthetic and others say it will make the gear box more noisy. Others say most synthetics have friction modifiers and should be avoided.

Most people say ATF is needed for the WC T5s because of lubrication of the needle bearings under the gears. Well, my NWC version uses a needle bearing under the 1st gear.

Some are even using John Deere Hydra Guard Transmission fluid that is a non-foaming fluid that is used for a wide range of applications from lawn tractors to very large farm tractors.

No lack of success and failure stories for all types of lubrication listed above.

The bottom line is I have 3 quarts of Castrol Transmax ATF in my possession. Will this be a wrong solution?

William

 

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Oh, boy, here we go again...Here's what I say in yellow highlight below:

3 hours ago, William H said:

I completely understand the WC T5's use ATF fluid exclusively. We need to narrow the focus of our discussion to NWC T5's in CJs.

There is so much discussion out there about what to use ranging from ATF to 75w90 gear oil. The main consensus is GL5 class gear oils have additives that are harmful to the brass blocking rings.

This argument against GL5 gear lube has always been suspect.  Brass blocking rings have been in manual transmissions since the 1930s.  I have rebuilt units that old.  Brass blocking rings will etch from poor petroleum-based oils, which form acids and break down from moisture oxidation.  The brass and everything else suffers, just what you would expect.  Modern GL oils have both anti-corrosives and the option of non-petroleum synthetic bases.  

ATF is not specifically an EP (extreme pressure) oil, which manual transmissions and differentials have traditionally demanded.  Does it work in a NWC Jeep T-5?  You note the experiences of owners...Yet Ford/Tremec still recommends that lube in the modern T5 and T50D transmissions.

Why the ATF?  If lubricity and viscosity were the concerns, especially in the era of CAFE standards for fuel efficiency, ATF popped up as a solution in the '80s.  The kicker for me was the use of ATF in K30/K3500 GM 4x4 trucks with the gear drive NP205 transfer case in the early '80s.  GM apparently thought that if a chain drive 208 took ATF, why no stick it in the formidable NP205!  This was a really inappropriate use of Dexron. 

I have heard that Tremec now recommends 30wt ND motor oil, others say Tremec now recommends 50wt gear oil, and others say Tremec now recommendations 70wt gear oil.

Mopar also played the motor oil card with the AX5 and AX15.  After years of a "special" lube marketed under Mopar private label, an Aisin-recommended GL4 rating like Toyota used in its A150 version of this same transmission, Mopar's Chrysler/Cerberus Capital staff decided 30-wt. motor oil worked.  The private label GL4 lube (possibly commercial Valvoline) disappeared from the Mopar catalog.  

Dextron II is what was originally recommended and is no longer available.

Some say Dextron III is thinner but will work.

The later Dexron types should work if anyone wants that in a T-5.  Dexron VI is the latest, and my only concern would be whether it's too much lubricity for the brass blocking rings to work.  See my comments on that below...

Some say to use full synthetic and others say it will make the gear box more noisy. Others say most synthetics have friction modifiers and should be avoided.

As a Mobil 1 synthetic oil convert in the '80s, I ran Mobil 1 gear lube in manual transmissions.  I heartily recommended it in my monthly 'Holy Moses!' tech Q&A column at OFF-ROAD Magazine—until a Toyota pickup owner politely told me he followed the suggestion and switched from conventional (assume GL4) gear oil to Mobil 1 Gear Lube and instantly developed a gear clash on shifting.  The cause was clear to me:  the synthetic oil had so much lubricity that the brass blocking rings could not brake against the gear hubs.  The transmission acted like the synchronizers were defective or not working.  If this is what "others say", it could be the high lubricity causing the blocking rings to stop doing their job.  The Toyota truck owner switched back to conventional GL lube, and the transmission shifted fine.

Most people say ATF is needed for the WC T5s because of lubrication of the needle bearings under the gears. Well, my NWC version uses a needle bearing under the 1st gear.

The AX5 and AX15 have needle bearings in several critical locations.  Again, my faith would be governed by Aisin/Toyota's recommendation of a GL4 or GL5 oil in the transmission.  The AX5 and AX15 are far more precise and reliable gear systems than a T-5.  I would compare the AX15, at least, to the World Class T-5.

Some are even using John Deere Hydra Guard Transmission fluid that is a non-foaming fluid that is used for a wide range of applications from lawn tractors to very large farm tractors.

I'm sure it's a great oil, I'm a John Deere fan, though it's doubtful the formulation is chemically engineered for a Jeep T-5.  

No lack of success and failure stories for all types of lubrication listed above.

The bottom line is I have 3 quarts of Castrol Transmax ATF in my possession. Will this be a wrong solution?

I'm sure it would meet the OE recommendation.  If you're asking whether I would use it, likely not my first choice.  Here are the Valvoline catalog recommendations for a later generation T5 or T50D 5-speed manual transmission:

Transmission types:  T5, T50D Manual Transmission 5-speed

MA5 MERCON® -V Automatic Transmission Fluid

Synchromesh MTF 

Mercon V ATF

MaxLife ATF

Which one would I pick for an '80s Jeep CJ T-5?  Probably the Valvoline Synchromesh MTF [Manual Transmission Fluid].  Here is the Valvoline Catalog for your own perusal:

Valvoline V-8070 Manual Transmission Fluid Application Guide 6.6.13.pdf

My concern would be the synchronizers' reaction to the lube.  As for bearings of any type in the T-5 unit, this oil would be my choice for any place but Fairbanks, AK, the Arctic or a Jeep parked outside and run in sub-zero weather.  Under those conditions, I might use MERCON-V, which is similar to DEXRON.  (Your Castrol ATF might also spec for MERCON/DEXRON applications, something you can check.)  Any of the listed lubes would work, the test would be synchro behavior.  

In your case, William, I would expect the T-5 to last at least 150K miles, regardless of the lube.  Your build is spot on quality wise and likely you know how to drive a manual transmission properly.  That should keep the unit together.  Most Jeep T-5s, in my view, fail from forced downshifting and using the clutch and lower gears for braking.  

If you like forced downshifts and the sports car version of the T-5, as you note, look for a Holy Grail 'World Class' T-5 used in the Ford H.O. Mustangs...As a footnote, years ago Advance Adapters had pallets of brand new T-5 World Class replacement transmissions for CJ Jeep owners.  Unfortunately, the stock ran out.

William

Moses

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Thanks Moses,

I have witnessed fist fights over motor oil. :) I have been on board with Valvoline products for many years. After your recommendation, I did a lot of research on synchromesh and concluded it will be a good choice for my application. No one local stocks that product. O'Reilly will have it tomorrow. Thanks again.

Moving forward on the rebuild, This picture shows caveman tool marks on the rear seal seat. There was actually a raised tool mark that had to be ground down.

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Sealed with Loctite 518.

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Bearing press makes it easy to drive it straight and seat it flush.

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William

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Let us know how the Valvoline Synchromesh MTF works, William.  Other lubes might work, if this will pour through the oiling funnel and reach the bearings, it should protect this unit.  Valvoline is savvy and has product liability concerns.  That works for me...Did you find official details on a rated viscosity range for this lube?

I, too, did some further research and came up with this pearl:  Valvoline Professional Series Manual Transmission Fluid.  Open this PDF: Valvoline VPS Manual Transmission Fluid.pdf.  Read the details and compare this with the Valvoline Synchromesh MTF.  I could not find the official Valvoline Synchromesh MTF ratings, but this came up on a forum, and if accurate provides a comparison:

Valvoline SYNCHROMESH Manual Transmission Fluid
Vis @ 100°C (cSt)
8.8
Vis @ 40°C (cSt)
49.9
Viscosity Index
157
Spec Gravity @ 60°F
0.872
Density (lbs/gal)
7.27
Flash COC (°C)
201
Pour Point (°C) , max
-42
Phosphorus, wt.%
0.14
Sulfur, wt.%
Zinc, wt%
.35
0.11Product Information

If the third party forum Valvoline Synchromesh MTF info is accurate, note that the 40-degree C viscosity is 49.9 (thinner than VPS).  When 100-degrees C, viscosity drops to 8.8.  VPS is 73 and 14.5, respectively.  The non-VPS (your purchase) version is "thinner" pour when cold, well under 75-weight.  Thinned out and hot, it has slightly lower viscosity than the VPS.  If anyone questions the Valvoline Synchromesh MTF as being "too thick", it is certainly not.  Let's try to verify the third party forum data on your Valvoline Synchromesh MTF...This is not a 75W-90 but still considered a GL-4 lube.  These lubes both have zinc, and that's great.  I think you're golden!  

Nice seal install!  Glad to see that I'm not the only one who puts sealant on coated seal jackets...The only place this is not advisable is on automatic transmissions, though I've used it there—with great care to avoid oozing or creeping inside the unit.

Moses

 

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Moses,

Basically found the same 3rd party info you have except for this supposedly independent analysis.

A mechanic friend of mine wanted to know the makeup of this MTL was so I sent it along with some developmental samples of some of my own lubes. Any element less than or equal to 1 is not listed:

Valvoline Part Number 811095

Metals (ppm)
Iron (Fe) 2
Silicon (Si) 13
Potassium (K) <5
Additives (ppm)
Magnesium (Mg) 1627
Calcium (Ca) 14
Phosphorus (P) 1492
Zinc (Zn) 1233
Boron (B) <5

Physical Tests
Viscosity (cSt 100C) 9.2
Viscosity (cSt 40C) 50.3


Base Number (mgKOH/g) 7.2

It appears that Pennzoil Synchromesh has a competitor in this viscosity range.



Edited by MolaKule (12/29/13 09:08 PM)

Looks like the mystery of why the Countershaft Thrust Race fits too tight in the recess pocket of the tail housing may be solved.

First, all NWC T-5 diagrams that I have found do not accurately reflect the location of the countershaft end snap ring.

I have made a crude attempted to show the correct parts relationships.

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Appears the Thrust Bearing, Thrust Race, and Oiling Funnel became dislodged, most likely during assembly, and fell to the bottom of the Tail Section to become damaged by the gears.

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Without the Thrust Bearing in place, operational lateral thrust loads caused the Counter Shaft to walk out toward the tail housing to a point where the Thrust Washer was rubbing against the tail housing. This friction created a burr edge on the recess pocket edge where the Thrust Race sets that was discovered when probed with a right angle pic. In the picture you can see where the Thrust Washer has been rubbing.

I have machined away the burr edge and the Bearing Race now fits with light pressure.

I can see how these parts can easily fall away from the end of the Counter Shaft during assembly even when the parts are held to the Shaft with assembly lube. I plan to try attaching the Tail Housing with the Main Body stood vertical. Not much of a way to verify a completely successful mating of the Tail Housing and Main Body.

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Lucky to find this before it became a real problem. Can't believe there isn't a lot of discussion about this on the net.

William

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Input Shaft with Needle Bearings, Thrust Bearing, and Race.

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Counter Shaft End with new Thrust Washer and Snap Ring.

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Counter Shaft End complete with new Thrust Bearing, Thrust Race, and Oiling Funnel. Tail Housing and Top Cover was "Dry Fitted" a couple of times to make sure everything stays in place and shifts into each gear.

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Cleaning the sealing flanges with alcohol swabs.

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Last look before placing Top Cover.

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Top Cover bolts torqued to 80 in/lb. Also new O-Ring. FYI, Crown Master Kit does not provide O-Ring.

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Setup to measure End Play. Used small magnet on the end of the Input Shaft to provide a smooth surface for the plunger.

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Bearing Pre-Load Breakover measured @ 8 in/lb. No End Play or Lateral movement in the Input Shaft. Homemade PVC adapter between the Input Shaft and Wrench.

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Transmission ready for action.

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Next project is the Twin Stick Dana 300 jumping out of gear on down grades.

William

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Moses,

I didn't understand your last post as it was a repeat.

Considering new bearings and thrust washers do you think 8 in/lb too much preload with the transmission in neutral? It is about .006" more than the original shims. You can see from the previous post, the peak was 8 in/lb and with the weight of the wrench only the reading was 5 in/lb and it wasn't offering to turn under its own weight.

William

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William, it was a repeat, not sure why, and I deleted it just now...Final oil thoughts:  I believe Valvoline Synchromesh MTF is certainly "thin enough" at cold pour with protection equal to or better than ATF when hot.  Zinc is a big plus, and Valvoline Synchromesh MTF is more a GL-4 or EP type lube.  I'd run with it, and so would Valvoline.  Not sure whether (or where) the VPS lube is even available, and its cold pour at 73 would be considerably "thicker" than an ATF.  You're more than covered with the oil you have on order...Let us know how the synchronizers like it, that's the real world test; the bearings and gear surfaces will get plenty of protection.

Transmission in neutral, you're rotating the input/clutch gear, the counter gear, and the independent speed gears that engage the counter gear.  Was there a spec from Tremec here?  Your question relates to the counter gear bearing pre-load at the Torrington needle bearing and thrust?  The input shows 0.031" endplay, so the only start-up torque here would be the weight of the input gear and minute bearing and lube drag.

As far as weight of the torque wrench, unless the spec calls for start-up torque, I prefer a rotational torque.  This his the torque required to keep the shaft rotating.  Breakover or start-up torque is nebulous unless you eliminate the weight of the torque wrench and any resistance caused by gravity.  When start-up torque is a test requirement, I usually start the wrench from the 6 o'clock position and pull upward, or start the wrench from 12 o'clock and pull downward. With your adjustable dial wrench (which I prefer for this kind of test), this is easier:  You can set the torque dial to "0"—after you remove any slack in the wrench and socket.  Then you can begin the torque test, and this can be the start-up torque then rotational torque, always beginning the test with a "0" setting.  

Compare the 6-and-up to the 12-and-down measurements.  If each approach started its actual pull with no slack and the wrench at "0", you will usually wind up with somewhat even measurements.  

The other option, if there is much disparity between the 6 and 12 measurements, is to rotate and set your transmission with the input shaft straight upward and the shaft vertical.  This places your torque wrench on a flat, uniform plane as you rotate the wrench and socket (or the improvised PVC holding pipe in this case).  Again, take out any slack before zeroing the dial, and start the actual pull with slack removed and the torque wrench dial on zero.  This will provide start-up torque, and during the rotation, you can watch this generally taper off and become the rotational torque or continuous rotating load.

What does Tremec want to see as counter gear bearing "preload"?  Is it zero endplay on the counter gear plus a certain shim thickness?  Or is it a torque load like you've trying read?  I'm sure the 0.006" difference makes you concerned, but keep two things in mind:  1) the transmission had a poor previous rebuild that you inherited, and 2) the last Torrington/needle bearing and thrust race position was questionable with the race not seated properly or squarely.  

All you need to be concerned about is your build.  If Tremec has a spec, use it and be confident that you have all parts aligned properly and seated now. 

Moses

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Moses,

Wednesday was the "Shake Down" run for the transmission. After 50 highway miles, the transmission shifts really smooth with no vibrations and noises. No complaints with Valvoline Synchromesh MTF so far. However there was one drop of transmission oil on the front of the bell housing. This morning I ran the transmission in 5th gear @ 25 MPH for 30 miles without the rear drive shaft and there was no more oil. Will road test again and continue to monitor.

While bringing one of the Transmission to Cross member bolts up to torque, it started to yield in the aluminum housing of the Transmission. The good news is that a Time-Sert can be installed by dropping the Cross Member. It is a shame that it is not the same bolt size I used to repair the Bell Housing. I will postpone the repair until I determine if the front leak is an issue or before any major trail rides.

Thanks Moses for looking over my shoulder and I hope the issues and procedures discussed in this forum will be an aid to others. 

William

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Meticulous shake down, William!  

The aluminum transmission to crossmember threaded holes are notoriously vulnerable.  Yes, a Time-Sert® in stainless steel variety would be the optimal repair; fortunately you can readily access the threads with the transfer case and transmission in place.  Some would use a Heli-Coil, less expensive for sure, though you and I know the difference from personal experience.

If you lubed the front seal lip with gear lube, this could be the one drop at the bellhousing.  You're wise to confirm...Did you use sealant or Loctite at the through hole threads for the front bearing retainer bolts?

Moses

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Moses,

Well, looks like I will  be going back in. After 100 Highway Miles the front is still leaking. Inspection reveals the rear main is dry.

Used sealant on the front bearing retainer bolts.

The front seal supplied in the T5 Master Kit was the rubberized shell type. Which type performs best for you?

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Front side of the Flywheel is dry, gear oil is pooling in the inside of the bell housing.

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Hopefully, once the transmission is pulled I can address this issue without opening up the case.

William

 

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William...Like suspected, this could be the front bearing retainer seal or the retainer bolts/threaded holes.  That would not require a teardown, just replacing the front seal in the retainer, resealing the retainer face and replacing RTV at the bolt threads.  What type of RTV are you using at the designated places?

I'm disappointed that this nuisance leak occurred.  You did such a precise and painstaking job of building this transmission.  Inspect the input gear's seal surface, install the seal correctly as you likely did the first time around, and use a quality seal.  Here is the OEM part number and crossover to this number.  If a double-lip seal, the flared lip faces inward.  I took this to Timken and could not find a direct crossover, but I did find one under SKF seals.  NAPA sells SKF.  Here's the number and crossover in SKF:  

J 8 1 3 2 7 7 9 AMC........................ 1 2 3 6 3 [SKF number]

So that you have every base covered, here's the Mopar parts breakout for the T-5 internal parts.  Zoom-in for details:

Jeep CJ T-5 Transmission Mopar Catalog Parts and Schematics.pdf

Here's the case and adapter...Both of these PDFs cover the 1985 Jeep CJ-7:

Jeep CJ T-5 Transmission Cases.pdf

You can compare the P/N 12363 SKF to the seal provided by Crown...Keep us posted!

Moses

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Moses,

Looks like the Front Seal is where the leak is.

The front of the Transmission and the Retainer and hardware is high and dry.

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Gear Oil Pooling in the bottom of the Bell Housing.

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Gear Oil drops clinging to upper portion of the Bell Housing.

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Gear Oil clinging to Pressure Plate.

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Cleaned all the clutch surfaces with brake cleaner.

William

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William...You've narrowed this down.  The only additional question is why the new seal failed to seal.  Is it just a bad, weak or poorly sized seal?  Is the running surface on the shaft irregular?  Or is the shaft possibly running out of center, the most common cause being a worn or misaligned pilot bearing.  Very rarely, the nose of the input gear is not on center. 

You have the tooling to check whether the input gear is running on center with the crankshaft.  Historically, factory service manuals have offered details on "indexing" or confirming the bellhousing's index hole alignment.  Dowels on the block and the alignment holes in the bellhousing are supposed to index the transmission's input shaft/gear with the crankshaft's center line.  Of course, the pilot bearing at the rear of the crankshaft plays a large role here.  On AMC sixes, there is also the "shim" that goes between the bellhousing and the engine block.  This shim/spacer must be true in thickness.

To begin, take the time to make sure that the bellhousing front and rear faces are parallel.  You can do this by laying the bellhousing's engine flange on a flat surface.  Use a true straight edge at the transmission mating flange of the bellhousing and take different clock positions into account.  Measure between the straight edge and the flat surface.  You're looking for consistent, uniform measurements.

The other measurement is to determine that the center hole of the bellhousing is true to the crankshaft and pilot bearing's center bore.  The front bearing retainer indexing flange must be on-center and in line with the crankshaft's centerline.  Verify that the pilot bearing I.D. is a match for the input gear's nose diameter.  The pilot bearing bore must also index on center with the crankshaft.

Improvise and try other approaches as necessary.  Though this may turn up nothing wrong, at least you'll be certain that the Crown seal is your culprit.  See if there is a number and maker on the seal.  Try to cross it to the seal numbers I shared...

Moses

 

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Replaced Oil Seal and seated with Loctite 518, added 0.003" to the bearing preload. No more leaks!!

Also just received a new Tom Woods long stroke front driveshaft. The old one was built with a "Bigelow/Cornay" CV joint that was worn out and repair parts were not available.

William

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Ah, a preload gain to eliminate shaft runout...Good work, William, this Jeep should be very reliable when you're finished!

Moses

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