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Hi! Moses, how are you? can i ask your advice regarding the tranny swap for my 242 1994 grand cherokee limited awd. i want the manual 5 speed , can do that ? can you please guide me what to do and the parts that in going to buy either a serviceable one , i know i can get it in ebay. my  42RE is going to end and theres no good repair shop here for the tranny 42 RE and it will cost me a big amount .

 

Thank you.

 

Mario Bedayo

 

Philippines

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Hi, Mario...The Grand Cherokee with a 4.0L was actually available with a manual transmission though that is very rare.  You need to find a "donor" XJ Cherokee with a 5-speed AX15 manual transmission and compare this with your Grand Cherokee.  The XJ Cherokee is much more popular and shares parts with the Grand Cherokee.  There are similarities with the Jeep YJ Wrangler (1991-95), though I suggest a 1992-94 Jeep XJ Cherokee 4WD donor for the easiest match. 

 

This is not a simple undertaking.  The clutch/brake pedals and clutch hydraulic linkage, the crankshaft pilot bearing, flywheel and complete bellhousing through the transmission, the transfer case adapter (attached to 4WD AX15 transmission) and the transmission mount and other parts must be considered.  Some of this can be fabricated if you know your way around metal work.  The transfer case depends upon your current unit, if it is an NP231 part-time 4WD, that would be easiest.  The NP231 is used in both the Wrangler and XJ Cherokee, also in the 4.0L ZJ Grand Cherokee. 

 

I understand your aims.  You need to line up an XJ Cherokee donor vehicle.  Before purchasing the parts, take your time comparing each of the differences between your automatic transmission model and a Jeep Wrangler or XJ Cherokee equipped with the AX15 transmission.  (Possible donors would be the YJ and TJ Wrangler from late 1989-99 or XJ Cherokee late1989-99.)  Make sure the manual transmission is an AX15, which was used from late 1989-1999 behind the 4.0L engines.  You need all parts from the same donor vehicle, as the clutch linkage changes from a hydraulic release bearing to an external slave cylinder.  The project would be easier with 1992-94 XJ Cherokee donor parts.

 

Let us know how this works...

 

Moses

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Moses, thank you for the advice , if i find one Xj Ax 15 trans, will my existng  T case will fit , my trans is 42RE quadra trac Tcase NG 249 its a grand cherokee limited  1994 242 4.0 , is there any wiring harness for this, i see in youtube the trans swap and they have this neutral switch, correct me please if im wrong whats the purpose of this, also if i convert my tranny can i still use my AWD  Hi and Low  seating. ? thnak you again,

 

 

Mario Bedayo

Philippines

 

 

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You have the NP249 AWD transfer case with viscous clutch, which would not work well with a manual transmission and clutch.  You would be better off with the NP231 that comes behind the AX15 transmission.  It's a part-time 4WD type transfer case.  The NP249 viscous coupler is notorious for failing and is expensive to replace with a new one.  A viscous drive transfer case will not work well with a manual transmission, and the NP249 viscous coupler will fail quickly. 

 

It may be less costly to find a good NP231 transfer case.  If you go through with this plan, look for an XJ Cherokee with the AX15 transmission, bellhousing, flywheel and transfer case—all parts together.  Make sure the input and output flanges of the transfer case will work with your drivelines.  If not, you will need to install the correct flanges for the driveline type (likely CV joints to the front and rear, you can verify), available from Advance Adapters.  Driveline lengths may differ, you need to consider the console, floor shifter/cane hole and boot at the floorboard, the clutch pedal assembly, the pedal linkage, the clutch master cylinder and the hydraulic slave cylinder plus piping and clamps from the clutch pedal to the clutch release arm, the clutch release arm, throwout bearing and/or the clutch slave unit—everything that you do not have with the automatic transmission must be swapped from a donor vehicle.

 

In essence, you're looking at all the parts from the back of the engine (including a new crankshaft pilot bearing) through the transfer case plus all clutch linkage.  This is a considerable amount of equipment.  You will need to confirm driveline lengths and also change the transfer case shift linkage or at least the quadrant position indicator.  There were Grand Cherokee 4.0L models with the NP231.

 

The neutral safety switch is not on the AX15 transmission, it only has a backup light switch (which you need).  You currently have wiring for a neutral safety starter switch for Park and Neutral in the 42RE.  If the AX15 clutch linkage does not have a clutch pedal start switch, you would likely tie the existing 42RE neutral safety switch wires together to complete that circuit and enable cranking the engine's starter at any time. 

 

Note:  See whether the XJ Cherokee donor vehicle has a clutch pedal interruption switch.  If so, that could be used with the 42RE neutral start wires if you want to make sure the clutch pedal is depressed before cranking the engine...There is no gear position switch on an AX15, only the reverse switch for the backup lights.)  If desired, you could configure a clutch pedal interrupter switch to function like a neutral safety switch. The switch would fit like a brake light switch at the pedal...A clutch pedal interrupter switch means that you must depress the clutch pedal to complete the ignition start circuit.  Modern vehicles have this safety provision.  Older vehicles did not.  Your choice whether you need/want this safety feature. 

 

This conversion is a major undertaking, Mario.  The 42RE transmission is fairly strong and durable.  It does require period fluid changes and band adjustments.  If the transmission is not acting up, you would be more likely to have trouble with the NP249's viscous coupler than the 42RE transmission.  I would likely not do a conversion unless you are forced to do it (reasons like no automatic transmission parts available, the conversion would be cheaper than rebuilding the 42RE and NP249 or whatever). 

 

Personally, if the 42RE and NP249 failed and I also wanted a manual transmission, I would find a good ZJ Grand Cherokee manual transmission vehicle (very rare with the 4.0L and AX15 manual transmission) or consider getting a 1991-99 XJ Cherokee with the AX15 manual transmission and power steering/brakes.  My 1999 XJ Cherokee is extremely reliable and easier to service than a ZJ, and these XJs were available with the rugged AW4 automatic or an AX15 manual transmission.  Most XJs have the NP231 transfer case, some use the NP242.

 

I would save the 4.0L engine and front and rear axles from the '94 Grand Cherokee for backup parts.  (These axles are not identical to the XJ Cherokee, although they share some components and would also have value for trading parts.)  I know that this sounds drastic, but so is the idea of converting a ZJ Grand Cherokee to a manual transmission if you consider the parts and labor involved.

 

Moses

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Moses Thank you for the highlights regarding the AX-15 yes , your right if theres nothing i can do ill move to that conversion Ax-15, actually , what happened is im preparing if my 42Re will give up as here in our place in the south of the philippines theres no service center for this Trans, there are shops that work on the trans but more in the japanese models. also i ahve a problem in my 42 RE as it was converted From EFi to carburator. after a year of run good , i have this problem hope you can give some inputs , first start about 2 min, when i engage in drive  the GC is hesitant to move but when i engage in reverse it moves imediately also in first gear  it move with no problem, and then later when you engage in drive  i feel it engages and it move with out problem. but if i try to hurdle a road gutter  for about 6 inches in a dirve move it cannot hurdle. if in first gear or 1 its can. manage. please give me some highlights in 42RE and what to do. my carb. is 32/36 weber, do i need to change  carb. to a bigger one? you know i follow your advice for the comp cams, what happened i change back to original cams as the comp have my push rod bind a little even to i install the comp cams hyd. lifters,and i got that problem can you give please some inputs,  my friend would like to  give me a clifford hyd.cams 264 plus the kit is this good for my jeep 242 4.0 as he told me it is design according to clifford for that engine with a carb. set up. Hoping you're not bored for so many questions i ask but your the only person who knows in cars...Thanks.

 

Your Friend from the philippines,

Mario Bedayo

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Hi, Mario...The RE transmission has an anti-drainback valve on the transmission cooler line.  If the valve is clogged or defective, the torque converter can drain back when the vehicle parks for a period of time.  This causes the transmission to start up without fluid applied when you place the shifter in gear.  When this happens, it is very rough on the front pump bushing.  I cover this issue and the fix at the magazine: http://www.4wdmechanix.com/Survival-Upgrades-for-Jeep-and-Dodge-Ram-Automatic-Transmissions.html.  A fluid and filter change, band adjustment and making sure the anti-drainback valve is not clogged may solve your 42RE problem.  If not, consider the upgrades that I describe in the article.

 

The inability to climb over an obstacle could be the viscous drive in the NP249 or the transmission torque converter.  If the transmission slips, I would do a transmission service right away:  fluid and filter change with a careful band adjustment.  Also check wiring to the transmission, there are solenoids that control shifts...There is a torque test for the NP249, but in simple terms, it either works, slips or chatters/ratchets when you go around corners.   How many miles does the Grand Cherokee have?

 

The CompCams 252 with stock pushrods and CompCams lifters should not cause coil bind on valve springs.  The lift is way too mild for that unless the pushrod length is too long (head milled, block decked, wrong pushrods or other reasons for incorrect valve lifter clearance).  Also, when installing lifters, do not fill or "pump up" the lifters with oil.  Lube only the lifter bases and sides of the lifter.  If you fill the lifters with oil before installation, you will get too much valve lift at first engine start-up!  This can cause valve spring coil bind, valve to piston interference and bent pushrods or valves.  Let the engine's oil system fill the lifters.  Once the engine runs, it will set the proper pushrod height and lifter clearance.

 

I prefer the 252 grind to the 264 profile.  You could run the 264, but it would be more of a mid-range to high speed gain, not the steady, low-speed torque improvement of the CompCams 252 grind...Think about your lifter installation.  If you filled the lifters with oil (soaking or pumping them full of oil) before installing them, you could have created a problem.

 

Moses 

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Not a lot of miles for a ZJ 4.0L Grand Cherokee...Try the fluid, filter and band adjustment on the 42RE, it should be overdue...

 

Moses

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wolfman...Maybe—if you have the right signals for speed, brake interface, the clutch engagement/disengagement, etc.  If you're working with a manual transmission donor vehicle, see if there are any obvious differences in the manual versus the automatic transmission components for the speed control.  The clutch pedal/speed control interruption would be a concern, you do not have that provision with the automatic transmission chassis.    

If you provide the year for your ZJ Jeep Grand Cherokee, I can share the parts schematic and part numbers related to the cruise/speed control.  You can compare between a manual and automatic transmission application to see the parts involved.

Moses

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wolfman...Below is the Mopar parts listings for the 1994 Jeep XJ Cherokee and 1994 ZJ Grand Cherokee speed controls.  You also need to compare wiring harnesses between your donor vehicle and your ZJ chassis.  

If the only speed signal is from the speedometer drive at the transfer case, compare the wiring of an XJ Cherokee (manual transmission) to your ZJ Grand Cherokee.  If identical, you may have the speed signal you need despite the AX15 conversion.  Be cautious when playing with the speed control, confirm which signals are reliable and necessary.  Be certain that the system will shut off immediately with a brake pedal "tap" or switching off at the control buttons.

The schematic and parts listing for cruise control covers the engine and engine bay components.  Compare your automatic transmission application to the manual transmission listings.  I provided 1994 as the prototype for both the XJ Cherokee and the ZJ Grand Cherokee:

Jeep 1994 XJ and ZJ Cruise Speed Controls Comparison.pdf

Moses

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Ok I did find a 94 cherokee donor for this project. I've noticed that the transfer case in the XJ was mounted right to the tail of the manual tranny. The ZJ transfer case is mounted to what appears to be an extention piece. I hope that this extention will mount to the manual transmission or it won't be long enough for the rc shifting linkage. If I am mistaken please let me know thanks.

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Ideally, the extension housing or "adapter" will bring the automatic transmission to the same overall length as the manual transmission.  Your concerns are: 1) length of the transmission with adapter in place, 2) spline count and stick-out length of the output shaft of the transmission and 3) the transmission mount position.

Measure the overall length of your automatic transmission and compare to the manual AX15 transmission with bellhousing.  Measure from the engine block to the end of the adapter.  When you have the transfer case removed, measure the stick-out length of the automatic transmission's output shaft and compare this to the AX15.  Measure the transmission mount location—from the engine block to the mount pedestal.

Which transfer case do you have now?  The I.D. label is at the rear face of the transfer case.  Optimally, you have part-time 4x4, the NP231 transfer case.  This would match the AX15 offering in the XJ Cherokee.  Or are you swapping the AX15 with its transfer case?  Make sure that your drivelines will fit and match up for flange type and driveline lengths. 

 

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The manual is way shorter than the automatic when the extension housing is on the automatic. I do have the part time tc that I'm putting in.

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You're including the manual transmission and bellhousing together?  The automatic transmission's length includes the converter housing (equivalent to the bellhousing for the manual transmission)...If the overall length of the transmission/bellhousing/converter housing and transfer case differs, you'll be shortening and lengthening the drivelines; so this part is important to note.

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My eyes were deceiving me apparently. We measured it this morning and it's the same. Thank you for all the info moses. It's very much appreciated.

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wolfman...Pleased that you find the lengths equal, this simplifies the fit-up and driveline issues.  Using the NP231 transfer case is sensible with a manual transmission.  Same yoke flanges and driveline fit?

Let us know how this project unfolds, some photo steps would be helpful to others.

Moses

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It's taking 3 jeeps to do this project lol. Motor and tc came out of 95 ZJ. Tranny came from 94 XJ. All going into a 94 ZJ.

I will try to get some pots but not sure if I will, once I get busy on something I tend to forget everything else.

Again thank you. Glad there are experts out there willing to help a dummy like me lol.

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Another question, the XJ pedal assembly bolts in a little different than the brake pedal in the ZJ. Can I just drill a hole in the XJ assembly to make it bolt in the same as the ZJ? I've attached pics.

20170618_152630.jpg

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Is that hole the only difference?  I see the brake light switch on the bracket at right, presumed to be your ZJ bracket?  A ZJ manual transmission donor would be very rare in the U.S., more likely available as Export model equipment.  If everything else looks the same, pushrods working properly with the brake booster and the clutch master cylinder, you could drill the hole in the bracket to match.  You do need an operational brake light switch, too. 

Do the two built-in nuts on the XJ bracket align with your firewall properly?  If so, would it be more practical to drill two holes through the firewall to catch these two bracket nuts, following the XJ Cherokee mounting and support method?  In the end, you need to make sure that the pushrod lengths, pushrod alignment and the brake pedal to booster pushrod adjustment are correct.

An additional concern would be a clutch pedal/starter circuit interruption switch.  This would be OE equipment on a manual transmission model, requiring that you depress the clutch pedal to crank the engine over.  Without being suggestive, years ago we did not have a clutch pedal starter cut-out and learned to drive without cranking the starter while the manual transmission was in a forward gear or reverse.  (Some hardcore 'wheelers find that the clutch pedal cut-out is a nuisance when trying to start/crank the vehicle in gear while in low range off-pavement on a steep ascent.)...Your call here.  You currently have the Park position interruption wired into your system.  That wiring could be configured for a clutch pedal/starter interruption switch.

Moses

 

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Ok I did find that the ZJ bracket had a slight bend in it just before the hole. These ends would be facing the driver so drilling holes in the firewall wouldn't be an option. What I did is, I made a cut with a reciprocating saw in the edges and bent it the same as the ZJ bracket and then drilled a hole. Hopefully this works lol. The neutral position switch is just going to get wired together so it won't cause me issues later. I'm going to go without a clutch cut off switch as well. I'm with those wheelers on this lol. Here's a pic of the finished bracket. I also used a die grinder to make the hole for the brake light switch bigger to accept the ZJ switch.

2017-06-19 17.57.39.jpg

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Ah, now I get the orientation, thanks for clarifying!  As long as the bracket assembly has strong support against the firewall, you've got it.  You want no flex and no wobble when installed, a sturdy bracket assembly with correctly aligned pedals.

Make sure your pedal pushrods have correct adjustment/clearance at the clutch master cylinder and the brake booster.  No friction or binding, just smooth, safe pedal action.

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If anyone is considering this kind of swap I would suggest finding a pedal assembly from an actual ZJ. The XJ pedal assembly requires some definate modification to make it work. I've found yet another issue. The distance from the brake Booster studs sticking through the firewall and the holes for the clutch master cylinder seem to be closer together in the XJ than they are in the ZJ. Is there any other way to remedy this other than drilling yet more holes in the firewall? I already had to drill holes for the studs on the clutch master cylinder because the master cylinder for the ZJ is completely different from the XJ one. Here is a pic of the distance that I'm speaking of.

2017-06-20 12.15.32.jpg

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Mario found a ZJ Grand Cherokee manual transmission donor vehicle at the Philippines...Manual transmission ZJs are rare at North America, easier to find in the Mopar parts guides.  Here at the forums, I have furnished a PDF illustrating the individual differences between the ZJ and XJ components.  (The details and PDF are available under an "All Content" search for "ZJ Grand Cherokee".  Look the parts details over.)

Can others comment on a ready solution?  I have welding and cutting equipment, plus steel, so a growing project like this would have its solution in some fabrication work.  Can anyone help wolfman find an easier route?

Note: There are swing pedal assemblies for matching aftermarket hydraulic brake and clutch cylinders.  Sources include Advance Adapters, Wilwood, Summit Racing and others.  This can get expensive, however, and wolfman is trying to do this at a reasonable cost with OEM parts.

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Ok I just bit the bullet and just drilled more holes. Turns out the clutch master cylinder on an XJ is closer to the brake Booster AND higher than where the holes are in a ZJ. Gonna try hooking everything up tomorrow.

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Let us know how this turns out...One thing I like to do when fabricating an attachment of this kind is to improve the attachment (in this case the pedal bracket) to fit existing holes.  Is there a prospect of welding a plate(s) to the XJ pedal bracket that would align with existing ZJ firewall holes?  Optimally, holes could be drilled in the plate (now part of the pedal bracket) rather than the firewall.  Is that possible?

Please share photos of your mounting method and how the XJ bracket and pedal rods align with the brake booster rod and the clutch hydraulic cylinder pedal pushrod.  I've commented that these rods must move freely and have the correct adjustment.  If you need info on the XJ Cherokee's clutch pushrod clearance and the ZJ Grand Cherokee booster rod adjustment, let me know.

  

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I simply just made more holes in the firewall where the bracket lines up for the clutch master cylinder. The bolt hole that I showed you earlier that I drilled in the top of the bracket was a pain to get a bolt back in it. The factory bolt tapered down and was just short enough that it wouldn't grab the threads. Bought a new bolt that was threaded all the way to the end and problem solved. If there is a way to adjust the push rod on the brake booster, I would love to hear about it just in case it needs to be done. I will get a pic here in a few.

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wolfman...If you're using the ZJ brake booster and master cylinder, and if they are still mated together, the only concern should be the position of the booster's pushrod when the brake pedal retracts.  You want the booster's pushrod travel (inward and out) to be the same with the swapped XJ pedal assembly as it was with the original ZJ brake pedal.  Another way to view this is that the booster pushrod (when attached to the brake pedal with the pedal retracted) should stretch inward through the firewall the same distance as it did with the ZJ pedal.

Note: You need to have the same brake pedal travel with the XJ pedal as you did with the ZJ pedal.  You also want the retracted pedal position to be the same with the XJ pedal as it was with the ZJ pedal.  The brake booster push rod needs the same range of travel as it had with the old pedal.  The pedal and pushrod should retract to the same point that the pushrod retracted with the ZJ pedal.  You then need to adjust the brake light switch accordingly.

The clutch master cylinder pedal pushrod should have a very slight clearance at the pushrod's tip when the clutch pedal retracts.  This assures that the clutch master cylinder piston can retract completely.  The clutch pedal's retracted height should allow enough pedal movement for the clutch master cylinder piston to travel through its bore—without bottoming.  You want the full range of clutch master cylinder piston movement to take place between the retracted pedal height and the floorboard.  

Note: The clutch master cylinder piston must not bottom in the clutch master cylinder bore before the pedal reaches the floorboard.  The balance point is a piston that retracts completely with the pedal released, yet the clutch pedal can travel to the floorboard before the clutch master cylinder piston bottoms.

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That's all great info but now can you tell me how to adjust them? I don't see any adjustments to them at all. The pedals at this point are too close to the floorboard.

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I searched the factory shop manuals for both your ZJ Grand Cherokee and the XJ Cherokee brake boosters.  Mopar assumes that the pedal assembly heights and pedal travel are stock, which is a fixed distance from the floorboard.  Therefore, they do not provide an adjustment feature for the booster rod length, which is why I went into such detail about your pedal height, pedal travel and the location of the pushrods.

Note: On a stock ZJ or XJ Jeep, the booster pushrod simply attaches to the pin on the stock brake pedal.  Same with the clutch pushrod.

At this point, since you're using XJ pedal assemblies in a ZJ body, you need to position the pedals to accomplish what I detailed in the Friday 8:11 p.m. post.  I was responding to our discovery that the brake booster pushrod has no adjustment provision.  Its length is fixed and relative to the height of the stock pedal.  Same with the clutch pushrod.

You describe the pedals being too close to the floorboard.  Is this compared to the ZJ brake pedal?  Are the pedals too close because the XJ pedal support bracket has pedal pivot points closer to the firewall?  Or is the XJ pedal support bracket-to-firewall angle different?

Can you space out, or tilt and space, the XJ pedal support bracket to raise the pedal heights from the floorboard and align the pushrods' lengths properly?  Would this provide the right pedal travel and establish the right pushrod alignment? Or do you need a longer brake booster pushrod and clutch release pushrod to raise the two pedals away from the floor when retracted?  Can the pedals be raised further with the pushrods detached?

This would have been easier with a ZJ Grand Cherokee manual transmission brake/clutch pedal assembly—if such a setup could be located.  If you're committed to the XJ Cherokee pedal setup, let's continue discussing this.

Moses

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Oh I'm definitely committed the the XJ bracket. I'm past the point of no return as of now.  thank you for that info, I was prepared to pull the MC off and attempt to adjust the booster. I think the issue is that the XJ has the bracket sitting in there more level than the ZJ does. I have moved on to actually installing the engine and transmission only to find that my ZJ 231 TC won't fit on the XJ tranny without changing the input shaft to accept the manual output shaft. Once I get all that done I'll come back to the pedals. I may have to do a write up of this so others will know what they are in for before they take this on.

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wolfman...I got your reply just now and am answering before shutting down my computer until Tuesday morning.  I'll be watching for forum activity on my laptop between now and Tuesday.

You're becoming the prototype for this fit-up.  Yikes, the spline count is different on the TCs?  Not difficult to remedy this but certainly a delay, does provide an opportunity to freshen up the TC.  Sorry you've encountered this issue, Mopar apparently matched your 231 TC to the automatic transmission output shaft in your ZJ.

I thought that your XJ bracket might be angled differently, you hinted about the fit-up difficulties.  Glad you're allowing time to contemplate the solution.  This may entail tilting the bracket for more pedal travel.  (Keep the pushrods in alignment with the booster and master cylinder.)  We can discuss this further when you get back to the pedals, maybe sleeves and longer, graded bolts at the backside of the pedal bracket (lower end) would work.  

The pedals and their function are a safety concern, I know you'll be prudent and solve this properly.  You're helping others with this degree of detail and your candid findings.  I know you're busy with the steps involved, but a few photos at some point would help illustrate these issues.

Moses

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The spline count is the same. Only difference is, the automatic has a smooth portion at the end and the TC has a smooth portion in the bottom of it. The manual is splined all the way out to the end.

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Ah, the AX15 shaft is too long for the input gear of the TC.  I ran into this when installing an NP231 behind a freshly rebuilt 1990 AX15.  If you intend to keep the transfer case and transmission, you can cut off the end of the AX15 output shaft to fit.  As you have discovered, it's not much, about 1/8" or so. Before cutting, accurately measure the stickout length of the output shaft and the shaft's reach into the input gear, allowing for enough clearance.  

The output shaft is case hardened, so you do not want to generate a lot of heat.  When the shaft is out of the transmission, methods for shortening the shaft include a power band saw (preferably liquid cooled) or a chop/cut-off wheel moved slowly to reduce heat.  Cruder methods include a surface grinder.  Move the cutting tool (blade, disk, etc.) slowly enough to prevent excessive heat build-up.  Too hot will "normalize" or soften the case hardening, much like annealing.  The heat affected zone (HAZ) \will be slight if you're careful.  Otherwise, you'll be using an AX15 type input gear on the transfer case...

Let us know the amount of excess stickout length.  Allow for some clearance between the shaft's end and the input bore.  The TC case mates flush with the transmission adapter, so there is virtually no flex in service.

  

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No its not really to long it just wasn't right. I'll get some pics to show you later in the week. What I did was take the input shaft out of the busted 231 TC from the XJ and put it in the ZJ TC. Should work now.

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Ok, the first 2 pics show the automatic tranny tail shaft and the TC input shaft.

The next 2 show the manual tranny tail shaft and the TC input shaft for it.

You could put the automatic tail shaft into the manual's TC but not the other way around.

Also when I said we measured the 2 trannys and they were the same length, turns out my father-in-law stepped it out beside each one instead of using a tape measure. The manual is shorter than the automatic. When I measure it out I'll let you know how much. The front drive shaft out of the XJ will now work in the ZJ. However, this is not the case for the rear one, it will have to be longer now.

Many of these issues could've been fabricated differently if they were known ahead of time. I will make suggestions on that when I'm done.

 

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I have already got this swap complete from a 92 xj to a 93 zj I've bypassed the nss temporarily it turns over but fuel pump wasn't kicking on now I got that taken care of and somewhere I lost spark 

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Headway, Drew!  Looks like you're wrapping this up.  Did you find a ZJ clutch/brake pedal assembly?  (Rarer than hens' teeth!) Did you replace the XJ brake/clutch pedal assembly that you modified to fit?

Listening for a start-up, watching for taillights going down the road!

Moses

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Everything works as it should I only had to cut a hole for the master cylinder everything is already done had to shorten drive shafts I've bypassed the nss and even swapped ecms 

because I have a 92 jeep Cherokee Laredo xj and a 93 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo zj

 

ive spent a lot of time and money on the xj and it only starts on starting fluid but will run all day I've changed everything but the wiring harness 

so moving onto the zj it ran perfectly had automatic transmission I got it rebuilt and it doesn't even have a 100 miles on it but the housing is cracked where the main line goes in have tried several different things to try and fix it so decided to do the swap everything is done and in I just have no spark 

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Drew...Check the fuel rail pressure regulator for a stickng diaphragm; also confirm the manifold vacuum supply to the pressure regulator.  The regulator on an MPI system boosts fuel flow (increases PSI) to the injectors during engine cranking.  The engine will run okay with a defective regulator.  If you have a fuel pressure gauge, test and compare the fuel pressure when cranking versus idling.

Moses

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1 hour ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew...Check the fuel rail pressure regulator for a stickng diaphragm; also confirm the manifold vacuum supply to the pressure regulator.  The regulator on an MPI system boosts fuel flow (increases PSI) to the injectors during engine cranking.  The engine will run okay with a defective regulator.  If you have a fuel pressure gauge, test and compare the fuel pressure when cranking versus idling.

Moses

Yes that is all fine now but I have no spark I've tested for for power to them and the 12v wire flashes 2 times and the other one only flashes once entire time of cranking 

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Drew...CPS and connections okay?  Ground wire issue between body and engine block? Umm...

Battery negative cable disconnected, try detaching the ECM/PCM plug(s), not sure whether your Jeep has the 60-way single plug or earlier MPI ECM.  Inspect the contacts and clean them as needed.  Look for black (oxidized) film on the contacts.  Do not scrape contacts with a screwdriver or knife, use a quality electronic/electrical contact cleaner with milder Scotchbrite if necessary, rub gently and just enough to clean away the surface oxidation...Reattach the plug carefully.

Moses

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Glad you got it going drew. How did you solve the rear drive shaft being to short?

Moses, sorry I've been away. Been very busy lately, wife having foot trouble again and my wrench time got cut way down. I did however measure the trannys with a tape measure. The manual is 2 3/8" shorter than the automatic.

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Understand your time allocations and priorities, wolfman...Wish your wife our best from the forum members!

Is the overall length (engine block to transfer case face) the same between manual and automatic applications?  Does the adapter compensate for the 2-3/8" or not?  We can compare OE driveshaft part numbers if practical, they won't provide length measurements but will at least indicate interchangeability.

Moses

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What adapter are we talking about? I didn't put anything extra on it. I bolted the tranny directly to the engine block, the transfer case directly to the tranny.

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12 hours ago, wolfman said:

Glad you got it going drew. How did you solve the rear drive shaft being to short?

Moses, sorry I've been away. Been very busy lately, wife having foot trouble again and my wrench time got cut way down. I did however measure the trannys with a tape measure. The manual is 2 3/8" shorter than the automatic.

So I had to go to the junk yard and find a 2wd Cherokee the drive shaft was a lot longer I needed over all length of 42 inches so I had to cut the drive shaft down and reweld it make sure the cut is straight and the end piece you cut off is clean and straight and set it back into the drive shaft it's fairly easy todo and you have to shorten the front one 2 1/2 inches and move the  4x4 shifter plate back some  here is pics of the shaft s before welded 

IMG_0396.JPG

IMG_0397.JPG

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17 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew...CPS was the issue?  Good news that the engine is running in time for the holiday weekend.

Yes and still have the  miscellaneous stuff to finish 

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On the driveshaft, how did you make the weld cut to remove the flange from the tube?  Looks like a lathe or at least you got smooth results.  Did you shorten the tube with a lathe, chop saw or hacksaw?  It looks square, again a good result.

I see you left the OE balance weight in place, a wise move.  If the flange and joint are from the same shaft and indexed with the tube in the original orientation, you'll likely not have a balance issue.  Your weld material should have been even around the tube, which would have very little effect on balance. 

Let us know how the balance turns out...

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wolfman...The "adapter" is the rear housing on a 4x4 AX15 that connects to the transfer case.  It's a casting that takes the place of the 2WD tailhousing.  On 4x4 applications, they call this the adapter, as it mates the AX15 main case to the transfer case.

Moses

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Ok moses, then no it does not make up that 2 3/8" difference. Hence the reason for shortening and lengthening drive shafts.

Drew, thank you for your info. I didn't even think of a 2wd cherokee. I was thinking of maybe a Dakota drive shaft.

 

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Drew, thanks for sharing in a way that was helpful to wolfman and others...That's a forum community!  

Regarding the difference in manual versus automatic transmission lengths, does the rear engine/transmission mount fit the same crossmember position for AX15 and automatic transmission models?  Is the transmission mount the same?  Is the transmission length difference rearward of the mount?  

What are you doing about the front driveline if the transfer case sets further forward?  Is the OE front shaft too long—but offset by the chassis lift?  Make sure the front driveshaft can extend and collapse with room to spare over its range of suspension travel.  You don't want the shaft to compress too far (upward suspension travel) and bottom, which can damage the transfer case.

Have some fun this holiday weekend...

Moses

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51 minutes ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew, thanks for sharing in a way that was helpful to wolfman and others...That's a forum community!  

Regarding the difference in manual versus automatic transmission lengths, does the rear engine/transmission mount fit the same crossmember position for AX15 and automatic transmission models?  Is the transmission mount the same?  Is the transmission length difference rearward of the mount?  

What are you doing about the front driveline if the transfer case sets further forward?  Is the OE front shaft too long—but offset by the chassis lift?  Make sure the front driveshaft can extend and collapse with room to spare over its range of suspension travel.  You don't want the shaft to compress too far (upward suspension travel) and bottom, which can damage the transfer case.

Have some fun this holiday weekend...

Moses

I used a grinder and smoothed this weld down also marked  both sides then cut off the shaft where I needed to shorten it it's cheaper to shorten it then it is to lengthen it 

image.jpg

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Very helpful to others, Drew!  Thanks for taking the time to produce the video and explain your process...This also answers the question about shortening the front driveline.

Let us know how this all works out...

Moses

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1 hour ago, Drew082788 said:

IMG_0480.thumb.JPG.ce99329f9312fc9d5de92f8a25884eb4.JPGalso the plate underneath on the frame only need to cut out the circle area not the rectangle part and right now my shifter is hitting the plastic so I'm going to have to modif it a little and still have to move the bracket for the 4x4 back a little bit I also used the new ecm I bought for my 92 since it is set for a manual transmission I also used the transmission bracket off the automatic transmission and crossmember cause it lined up on the zj cause the xj one was to big but I had a little trouble lining it up but used a ratchet strap and pulled it into place but everything else has lined up perfectly 

image.jpg

I took the bracket from the automatic 4x4 shift linkage and cut pieces of of it to make it flat, held it up there where it needed to be and marked it. Then I welded it to the manual bracket. This way you won't have to move the piece on the body back.

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6 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew, thanks for sharing in a way that was helpful to wolfman and others...That's a forum community!  

Regarding the difference in manual versus automatic transmission lengths, does the rear engine/transmission mount fit the same crossmember position for AX15 and automatic transmission models?  Is the transmission mount the same?  Is the transmission length difference rearward of the mount?  

What are you doing about the front driveline if the transfer case sets further forward?  Is the OE front shaft too long—but offset by the chassis lift?  Make sure the front driveshaft can extend and collapse with room to spare over its range of suspension travel.  You don't want the shaft to compress too far (upward suspension travel) and bottom, which can damage the transfer case.

Have some fun this holiday weekend...

Moses

Moses, I had to take the top half of the automatic transmission tail mount and bolt it to the bottom section of the manual transmission tail mount. Before bolting them together though, I had to cut off the exhaust hanger from the bottom section. Since the manual XJ  has completely different hangers, when you cut that one off it will leave room for the automatic ZJ exhaust hanger that is already on the top section of the tail mount. This proccess will allow the tail mount to bolt right up to the ZJ cross member.

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8 hours ago, wolfman said:

Moses, I had to take the top half of the automatic transmission tail mount and bolt it to the bottom section of the manual transmission tail mount. Before bolting them together though, I had to cut off the exhaust hanger from the bottom section. Since the manual XJ  has completely different hangers, when you cut that one off it will leave room for the automatic ZJ exhaust hanger that is already on the top section of the tail mount. This proccess will allow the tail mount to bolt right up to the ZJ cross member.

I had todo this as well but I left the xj mount cause I had a custom exhaust on my xj that I swapped to the zj 

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Drew and wolfman...This is very useful for others making this conversion!  These details save time, and you're providing valuable insights.

Take some time for your friends and families this holiday weekend, the time off from knuckle-busting will lead to brainstorms!

Moses

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Ok moses, I have a question. I find ally got this put together once, took it down the road and all was good until I downshifted. I heard this terrible racket under the ZJ the sounded a lot like the splines on the drive shafts were letting it spin across them. (That was not the case thank goodness.) By the time I got it back home, every time you let the clutch out it makes this noise and it won't move. I checked the drive shafts first and it's all good. Took out TC and tore it apart, all looks good in there. Took out AX15 and pulled the case apart on it, can't see anything wrong there either. Took off the clutch and it looks good. I can't find a single thing that would make it do that. 

 

Any ideas?

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Wow, wolfman, you went to great lengths looking for the problem...Have you checked the rear axle for a differential or ring-and-pinion issue?  If you can safely jack the vehicle up and get the axles perched safely on jack stands, or get the vehicle up on a lift/hoist, it would be easier to pinpoint the noise source.

As for the rear axle or driveline, consider testing the rear axle without the engine running, one wheel off the ground at a time.  You could have a differential that let go or the pinion/ring gear.  See whether the rear axle pinion nut came loose...Check for extreme driveshaft backlash or axle/wheel movement.

If that doesn't do it, let us know...

Moses

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Almost sounds like the splines for the gears in the tcase   That is strange I picked up a durolast clutch set haven’t had a problem also just put a locker in the front let me know once you figure it out 

0780416B-6514-43E5-A670-035A7A25A906.jpeg

84344A5E-B49B-4FA9-ADBF-F5D5F44E4DE0.jpeg

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Which transfer case do you have?  Is this an NP249 with viscous coupler?  If so, you may have lost the viscous coupler.  Check you I.D. tag on the transfer case.  The number/model is clear.

Moses

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I have the 231 TC.

Drew it makes no difference at all.

At this point I think I'm going to reinstall the tranny and then start it up and try it. If it doesn't do it then, then I'll know it's the TC. BTW I couldn't find any wear marks in the TC where it was slipping or anything abnormal.

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Drew's point is well taken...I thought of the clutch cover/pressure plate, too, but you shared that you took the unit off and it looked good.  Is the clutch disk facing the wrong way, with the hub dragging on the flywheel bolts?  Any signs of parts interference? Is the release bearing able to retract far enough to clear the fingers of the clutch cover?

Moses

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Yep yep and yep lol. All of the clutch parts are as they should be and installed correctly. 

Drew, I would have to look it up again to be sure of the brand of clutch set. I got it from O'Reilly 

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17 hours ago, wolfman said:

Yep yep and yep lol. All of the clutch parts are as they should be and installed correctly. 

Drew, I would have to look it up again to be sure of the brand of clutch set. I got it from O'Reilly 

Hmm that’s strange. Where are you from I’m in Florida 

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Drew and wolfman, please note that you each have messaging as part of your current membership at these forums.  If you prefer a degree of privacy around your personal email addresses, take advantage of messaging each other back and forth through the secure forums messaging service.  IPS is our server host, very efficient and safe.

Member privileges will change on February 1st.  (See the Subscriber Member benefit details at the forums home page.)  If you continue as Subscriber Members, messaging is one of the perks.  The current (old) Member status ends after January 31st.  It would be great to see each of you continue as valued Subscriber Members at the forums with full membership privileges...

Moses

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2 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew and wolfman, please note that you each have messaging as part of your current membership at these forums.  If you prefer a degree of privacy around your personal email addresses, take advantage of messaging each other back and forth through the secure forums messaging service.  IPS is our server host, very efficient and safe.

Member privileges will change on February 1st.  (See the Subscriber Member benefit details at the forums home page.)  If you continue as Subscriber Members, messaging is one of the perks.  The current (old) Member status ends after January 31st.  It would be great to see each of you continue as valued Subscriber Members at the forums with full membership privileges...

Moses

Ok I edited mine and took out my email I didn’t know there was a massaging on here

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21 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Drew and wolfman, please note that you each have messaging as part of your current membership at these forums.  If you prefer a degree of privacy around your personal email addresses, take advantage of messaging each other back and forth through the secure forums messaging service.  IPS is our server host, very efficient and safe.

Member privileges will change on February 1st.  (See the Subscriber Member benefit details at the forums home page.)  If you continue as Subscriber Members, messaging is one of the perks.  The current (old) Member status ends after January 31st.  It would be great to see each of you continue as valued Subscriber Members at the forums with full membership privileges...

Moses

So does this mean as of February 1st we'll have to pay to be here?

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Yes, wolfman...We have run the forums for free over the last five years.  As of February 1st, the forums are shifting to a subscription base (Subscriber Member status) for posting topics and replies, asking questions and getting answers, downloading PDFs, using the new Photo Gallery (posting photos and even short video clips), messaging between us, reading and commenting at the new blog, and the subscriber membership privileges described in detail at the "Subscription Benefits and Terms":  

A"free" message board requires not only a substantial time commitment and monthly 3rd party hosting costs but also the need for advertising sponsorship.  An advertising base requires commitments to sponsors.  A subscriber message board/forums is free from these constraints.

We'll see how the subscription platform works, I'd like to think that the caliber of exchanges we provide each other is worth $1 per month or $12 for the full year's annual subscription—less than the cost of a Cummins 5.9L oil filter.  Some may not, and we will sincerely miss their participation.  I'd like to see your continued involvement, wolfman, but of course that's your decision.

Moses

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Guess I'll be seeing ya. Sorry to bail but I don't pay for anything on forums of any kind. I did this once and it ended up costing me a lot more. Not that I think it would here but I've just made it a rule for myself. Glad to have gotten to talk to you guys.

Later

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wolfman...Sorry you've had bad experiences with other forums, I understand...As a courtesy, I will keep topic content visible to the "(Old) Member" group so that folks like yourself who posted content between 2013 and January 31, 2018 will continue to have access to your topic posts and the replies.  As an unsubscribed "Old" Member, however, you will not be able to post new topics or replies.  Be aware that unsubscribed old members and guests will not be able to open or download PDFs after January 31, 2018.

I'll miss your exchanges!  Trust you will find the continued access to topics ("read-only") useful...If you change your mind at any time and want to convert your old membership to a Subscriber Member status, you will be welcome and can pick up posting and participation at the Forums!

Best,

Moses  

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