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Hello, I am rebuilding my 1977 Jeep CJ7 inline 6 4.2L. I am stuck on finding this part as shown in the picture.  The radiator hose hooks up to the engine block here and I can't seem to find the part that screws into this. It's small, I got a 3/8" connector, still to big, my radiator hose is 5/8". I bought this part from Summit (Fitting, Adapter, NPT to Hose Barb, 45 Degree, Stainless Steel, Natural, 3/8 in. NPT, 5/8 in. Hose Barb,)  see pic below.    I have tried everything to find this part and until then my build is at a standstill, please help.

Thank you

Simon

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Simon...Your photos and explanation are helpful.  From what I see, there's good news.  The cast fitting is part of the water pump.  There should be no threads inside this water pump "fitting" or nipple.  The heater hose fits directly over this casting nipple.  There is no fitting required.

I verified in the FSM for your Jeep model that the heater hose fits directly over this nipple.  If you measure the nipple stem casting (below the neck), you will discover that the outside diameter of the nipple is close to the inside diameter of the heater hose that goes from the heater pipe at the firewall to the water pump.

This is the return hose from the heater.  The hose inside diameter/size can be smaller on this return hose than the hose size from the thermostat housing to the heater.  Pay attention to the hose nipple and heater pipe sizes.

When I install these heater hoses, I swab a light coating of Gasgacinch on the I.D. of the hose end or around the nipple.  (In the day, I used a film of Permatex High Tack or Super 300D, which works fine.)  This adds to the sealing ability at this casting nipple or bib, which if iron is usually not smooth.  Do not apply too much sealant.  Excess will find its way to the radiator core/tubes.

Please confirm your findings...

Moses

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  • Moses Ludel changed the title to 1977 Jeep CJ Heater Hose Hook-up

There are threads inside of this, I screwed in a bolt to try and figure out the size, but from what I am hearing from you, I don't need a fitting to connect the hose.  All I need to do is place the hose over the cast fitting, seal it and clamp it for security? If so this is great news.  Thank you for your help.

 

Simon

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Yes, Simon, that should do it for the late seventies style water pump.  The factory service manual for your era shows the heater hose attaching directly to the water pump's integral nipple or bib.  Take measurements.  Measure the stem/shank of the nipple to confirm the hose I.D. size.  This should match with the heater return pipe O.D. at the firewall.

The thread on the water pump nipple could serve as a block-off if the vehicle does not have a heater.  If a pipe thread, it would be tapered, most likely a 1/4-inch NPT pipe thread size.

In the early eighties, AMC/Jeep 4.2L parts catalogs show a water pump design that does require a threaded heater hose fitting.  In my Mopar parts catalog for 1981, there is a water pump that takes a threaded nipple (part #36 in this illustration below).  The fitting used with this later water pump is factory/Mopar number:  

P/N 32002591 NIPPLE

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If your engine had this later style water pump, you would need a threaded nipple (Mopar 32002591 or equivalent).   That water pump casting thread is likely 3/8" NPT or larger.  The thread size you have on your pump is smaller than this.  Your pump does not use a separate fitting for the hose.  Instead, the hose attaches directly to the pump casting nipple.

Moses

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Your information is fantastic, if I come across any other hang ups I will definitely be hitting you up again.  Thanks for the support, I can't wait to finish the jeep up and get back on the road.  I'll send pictures when I'm done.  Some pictures for now

Thank you again 

Simon 

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11 minutes ago, Moses Ludel said:

Simon, you're building a nice Jeep CJ-7!  Keep up the detailed work on that engine...Let us know how the hose fitting issue works out.

Moses

I picked up a 1/4 threaded nipple and is to big. If I put on a smaller one would it cause not enough liquid to flow ? Is it possible to speak with you over the phone? You are fantastic 

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pwbulldog (Simon)...The Mopar P/N 32002591 has been discontinued.  I dug even further into aftermarket water pumps.  Crown Automotive is a good barometer.  All of the cast iron aftermarket water pumps for mid-seventies to 1990 AMC/Jeep 4.2L engines have a nipple cast into the water pump housing for the return heater hose.  They do not use a fitting.

In your latest close-up view of the water pump nipple (cast into the pump), it looks like the hose does fit directly onto the pump.  Will the 5/8" hose fit over the casting nipple?  If the hose fits properly, follow my original suggestions.  Ignore the pipe thread, it's an option for those who need to block off this port.

Yes, 1/4-inch NPT already restricts flow.  Anything smaller would not work.  Your water pump obviously does not require a fitting. 

Below is a typical Crown aftermarket cast iron replacement pump for 1975 up 4.2L engines.  The pump has a cast-in hose nipple like your pump.  If there is a thread, it's strictly for an NPT pipe plug for use when there is a need to block off the port:

1977 Jeep 4.2L Water Pump.jpg

In looking at heater hose connector fittings, there is no 1/4" NPT fitting for a 5/8" heater hose—for the reason you cite.  There would be inadequate flow.  This is confirmation that your pump accepts the return hose without a fitting.

Moses

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pwbulldog...I hunted the internet until these late seventies CJ 4.2L water pump photos turned up.  (Photos courtesy of http://jeep.smallcraft.net/.)  There were many similar examples without this degree of clarity...Note that the heater hose attaches directly to the pump casting nipple—without the use of a fitting.  You're on the home stretch:

1976 Jeep 4.2L Water Pump (3).png 1976 Jeep 4.2L Water Pump (1).png

1976 Jeep 4.2L Water Pump (2).png

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Simon...Like you discovered, everyone has the 304/401 V-8 dipstick tube and oil level stick for your era Jeep.  I searched and found nothing for the 4.2L inline six.   

My OEM part numbers go back to 1981.  For 1981-82 Jeep models, I found the 4.2L dipstick and tube.  (The change year appears as 1983.) Here are those Mopar part numbers:

TUBE, Engine Oil Indicator
J3176846 1981-82

INDICATOR, Engine Oil Level
J3237515 1981-82

I dug further, and Crown Automotive offers the tube, which is available at Quadratec.  This tube is backward compatible to your model:

https://www.quadratec.com/p/crown-automotive/engine-oil-dipstick-tube-jeep-cj-sj-and-j-series-6-cylinder-engine

Try contacting Crown or Quadratec about a matching dipstick for this tube...The oil level stick should be the same part as the Mopar J3237515.

Moses

 

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4 hours ago, Moses Ludel said:

Simon...Like you discovered, everyone has the 304/401 V-8 dipstick tube and oil level stick for your era Jeep.  I searched and found nothing for the 4.2L inline six.   

My OEM part numbers go back to 1981.  For 1981-82 Jeep models, I found the 4.2L dipstick and tube.  (The change year appears as 1983.) Here are those Mopar part numbers:

TUBE, Engine Oil Indicator
J3176846 1981-82

INDICATOR, Engine Oil Level
J3237515 1981-82

I dug further, and Crown Automotive offers the tube, which is available at Quadratec.  This tube is backward compatible to your model:

https://www.quadratec.com/p/crown-automotive/engine-oil-dipstick-tube-jeep-cj-sj-and-j-series-6-cylinder-engine

Try contacting Crown or Quadratec about a matching dipstick for this tube...The oil level stick should be the same part as the Mopar J3237515.

Moses

 

 

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I have no illustrations from the pre-1981 parts manuals.  Your components do not resemble frame members or engine/transmission support brackets.  A late seventies (1976-79) factory parts schematic for the body and attachments would be helpful. 

This is the 1981 Mopar catalog/factory body tub and dash layout.  Though not your model, this may be insightful:

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Moses

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Well, pwbulldog, that does account for a part that resembles #1 in the 1981 Mopar Parts illustration below.  Though not your 1977 model, the bracket for a column shift steering column is similar.  Sounds like you nailed it.  The other piece fits there too?

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Hello Again, I have just about completed my rebuild, been trying to get it to run smoothly now. My biggest issue is my distributor.  I was told, Pertronix Distributors were some of the best. Would you be able to recommend which one to get for my engine? 1977 Jeep CJ-7 Inline 6 4.2L.  Thank you for all your help to get me here. 

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pwbulldog...I like the DUI distributors though they are expensive.  An alternative is the HEI distributor commonly available that uses standard GM HEI type components.  Pertronix has been around for a long time.  Their breaker point to electronic conversions were not my favorite, but the current products are very reliable.

This would be an example of the common HEI replacement distributor that uses off-the-shelf GM type ignition pieces:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850047/make/jeep

Summit also has Pertronix, DUI, MSD and other high performance distributors—priced accordingly.  The MSD unit usually requires an electronic module or "box" as well.  The Holley Sniper is for EFI.  See the Summit listings and also check with Quadratec, 4WD Hardware and 4-Wheel Parts.

Moses

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pwbulldog...I received your message and will answer your questions below.  I trust this will cast some light on your ignition and tuning issues.  I'll answer every one of your exchanges with red highlight so you can single out my replies:

Hello All, I have a 1977 Jeep CJ7 inline 6, 4.2L 258. I have rebuilt the entire engine, remachined, mostly new part, new wires and a upgrade to a new double barrel Holly Carb. I have been having a lot of issues with it running rough. She will idle smooth and even run smooth when I rev the engine but when in gear 1st, 2nd and 3rd, she is struggling with pick up and acceleration. I changed out the distributor and for a month she ran great, now back to struggling, when in gear and I go to accelerate, there is no power, I need to baby the gas peddle to get her to go. Even then, if I give to much gas, stutter, stutter, stutter but once she gets over that I got some good power.

First off, I'm not clear which Holley 2300 series unit you have.  If the 500 cfm "universal" design, this is too much carburetor for a 258.  I experimented with Holley 2300 two-barrels on Jeep engines in the early nineties, using a $10K (at the time!) Horiba oxygen sensing onboard diagnostic tester.  (The tester was on loan from Horiba; I protected it with every inch of my being.)  This carburetor was designed to flow fuel to a big block engine in a restricted 2-barrel class of racing.  I changed power valves, metering blocks, float styles, pump styles, jets and everything else on the Holley accessory board.  The unit never came into proper flow for that engine size.  That said, out of respect for Holley, I found the optimal Holley OEM replacement carburetor for the 258:  The closest truck-type carburetor is the original Holley unit engineered for the 266 I-H V-8 from the sixties.  Manual and automatic choke versions were available.  That carburetor was designed specifically for the CFM and cubic inch requirements of an engine close in displacement to the 258.  If a Holley 2300 carburetor is the choice, that's the one that works.  The 390 CFM four-barrel would be my next pick.  If jetted properly, it can work, too.  An Autolite 2100/2150 is another prospect and used by AMC on V-8s.

The other issue, when going over 45/50 mph, she won't hold speed and I need to constantly give more gas to keep up on speed. I am eating up a 15 gallon tank of gas in 4 days, maybe getting 8 or 9 miles to a gallon. I am looking to replace the distributor, getting an HEI (DUI?, MSD?, Mallory? or Pertronix?) I would like to have the coil under the cap but if running with an external coil is better, please help me out with what would be best and which brand to go with.

If spark is not the issue, the carburetor is, as I noted, flowing way too much fuel.  An Edelbrock or similar air-fuel gauge/meter would be very useful for troubleshooting.  These meters are not expensive but do require installing an oxygen sensor bung in the head pipe.  Before doing that, pull the spark plugs after a brief wide open throttle run.  I'd like to see a photo(s) of the spark plugs.  My guess is that the plugs are fuel fouling.  If spark is adequate, this narrows down to the carburetor.  WHAT IGNITION DISTRIBUTOR ARE YOU RUNNING?  THE PRESTOLITE IS WELL KNOWN TO BE A MARGINAL UNIT.

I have put in a lot of time, money, miles, effort to get to this point, I still have a lot of work to do but that will come over time. I want to get her running smooth for the upcoming Chicago spring weather, I have a killer sound system and want to have a fun upcoming season. I am open to hear any and all advise to help me with my current issues and to try and find a solution.

Let's drill down further, I'll continue going through your exchanges:

(response)Lots of new things that could be the culprit. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come along and give you a step by step. First things that came to mind: what's the timing at? The other when you said you changed distributor and it ran fine for a month...made me wonder if the cam gear is chewed up.

Definitely inspect the cam drive and distributor drive gear to be sure there is not an issue.  Past that concern, spark timing and the spark timing curve are very important.  The HEI replacement distributors that mimic GM units with the coil in cap are simple and easy to adjust for both vacuum and centrifugal advance.  If a true GM topside knock-off, various springs and flyweights can dial the centrifugal spark timing curve where you need it.  Base timing is always low degrees of advance on these engines and checked with the vacuum advance disconnected and taped off.  I can furnish a conservative but ample spark curve if you want to dial-in an adjustable distributor.  Vacuum advance may require a vacuum canister with an adjustable diaphragm spring. 

I suggested the $179 Summit unit for its simplicity and cost.  DUI would be a good choice if money is not a concern...You will need to use the vacuum advance on these distributors, the AMC inline sixes need that initial spark advance movement to overcome hesitationwhich it sounds like you are experiencing.

(response)It won’t fix a timing problem, but you might want to run the coolant out of the thermostat housing through the intake manifold before returning to the pump. The heat will help with fuel atomization.

Quickly heating the base below the carburetor is always useful.  As hinted, you can use an OEM grid electric heater (later CJ and YJ Wrangler era 4.2L intake manifold method) or a hot water heater like Clifford has offered for many years.  Ford and many other manufacturers have used coolant heated intake manifolds.  The older engines use a bimetallic spring heat riser valve at the exhaust manifold outlet and direct hot exhaust beneath the carburetor base plate during engine warm-up.  The principle is the same in each case:  warm the intake manifold quickly to better atomize fuel until the engine is fully warm.  If the manifold remains cold, this warm-up period would impede the smoothness of the engine until fully warm.  If the symptoms persist after warm-up, there is more involved.


(response)I do not have a timing problem we have gone over that. I have looked for vacuum leaks and so far have not found any. I will pass on the advise of the coolant to my guy. Thank you.

Vacuum to the distributor vacuum advance must be ported vacuum and not manifold vacuum.  The engine should be base timed with the vacuum disconnected.  The Prestolite with two vacuum hoses has a retard function.  If you do run that distributor, you need to route vacuum exactly as AMC/Jeep proscribed.  Otherwise, you could be retarding the spark at the wrong point.  You need the '77 FSM to determine the function and vacuum routing for the Prestolite vacuum advance/retard.  This was a radical approach to emission control compliance in the mid-seventies.

(response)Vapor lock? No return line from the fuel filter, not sure what year started running a return line to the tank. How's the plug color? Since you seem to be having issues under load more than anything, I would look at vacuum advance to start.

Agreed, certainly a significant concern...You need to check spark advance for both the vacuum circuit/advance and the centrifugal advance.  If you need the spark curve and base timing specs for the '77 or other AMC engine years (earlier 232/258 engines are far less emission restricted), let me know.

(response) I have a '77,
when I 1st got it it was pretty much original,
Then I started having problems with the Prestolite system
The module and distributor started messing up with various problems
The solid copper bell wires entering the dist broke
Advance weights inside---spring broke
The bellows on the front dry rotted and crumbled
Plastic parts would jam up for the advance
all happening one after the other.
I've had many CJ-5s
I think the best one I ever had (engineered the best) was My 1979 w/ 258
Perfected from previous years---not ruined with computers and such of later ones.
I incorporated the Duraspark (Motorcraft) system (beginning in the '79) into my '77.
Salvage yard Ford wiring and connectors, a reman lifetime warranty distributor
and Wah-lah my '77 is just like a '79.
So, since '91, my '77 has had lots of improvements to make it like a '79.
As far as all of the other things they do to one, The stock '79 stuff is bulletproof and your Jeep will run well like that.
I've gone from the 1 barrel YF, to the 2 barrel BBD, the crapola 32/36 Weber, and now a 4 barrel 390 Holley.
I now pretty much get 18 MPG with the Holley and the stock '79 ignition stuff.
So my guessing is
Maybe a vacuum leak and maybe a failing Prestolite something.

This was a wise, insightful exchange...The Motorcraft unit is better than the Prestolite but does require the Motorcraft module and following a later wiring schematic.  I always ran the "big" Motorcraft distributor cap and rotor on this distributor to eliminate risk of cross-firing...This reply focuses on the gamut of common retrofit carburetors and makes valid assessment of each.  The Holley 390 CFM, ironically, performs much better than either the 300 or 500 CFM 2300 two-barrel "universal" carburetor.  Flow would be okay for your 258 cubic inch displacement.  A Quadrajet from a 252 Buick V-6 would be good option as well, though it's a spread bore design and requires the correct adapter.  On that note, check your intake manifold gasket and carburetor base plate gasket(s) for leakage:  At idle spray a lower-volatility spray like WD-40 toward these gaskets.  Avoid the hot exhaust manifold!  A change in engine speed indicates an air leak that can cause a variety of engine tune and performance quirks.
 

(response) Consider back pressure from the exhaust system. Cats go bad and plug up the downstream parts, like the muffler.
Possible symptom, runs fine until you put a load on it. Just a hint from here, I'm not there. It depends on where they were sold.

Another excellent piece of advice.

(response)Hey man, I recently had to drop my fuel tank and remove the rubber that the fuel lines run through between the tub and the rear crossmember. Over time, the body mounts settled and it crushed the fuel lines. So I replaced them and removed the rubber pass through thing completely. Solved my issues. If you have a boat tank or something, try connecting it to your fuel pump and go for a drive. If it solves your problems, chances are your fuel line is crushed like mine was.
It's right in front of the fuel tank where the lines pass between frame and tub. That spot doesn't age well. Hope this helps man

Always check fuel pump output at the carburetor with the engine idling and a "T" fitting arranged to flow gas into a safe steel can a good distance from the engine and heat.  Also, there was mention of the fuel return line.  Any missing or misrouted part of the closed crankcase or EVAP systems can cause blockage of fuel flow.  (A defective, poor sealing fuel cap can cause fuel starvation issues and mimic vapor lock.)  The three-pipe AMC fuel filters or fuel pumps were designed to minimize risk of vapor lock by steadily returning fuel to the tank...It's time to sit awhile with an FSM's vacuum diagrams.

(response) Looking at your photo you have a new carb on a late model manifold, and what looks like an HEI ignition system, certainly aftermarket.
What did you hook the ignition up to? Is it defo a 12V source or was it the wire that goes to the coil? That is only 7V.The fuel line snakes up over the valve cover to a small clear inline filter and then on to the carb. I cannot see a return line to the tank. What pump are you using? When it is running can you see air coming into that filter?

Another good point.  Many ignitions and starter solenoids are engineered to provide 12V to the coil during cranking then drop to 6V-9V once the engine starts.  An HEI looks for 12V-plus consistently from an ignition source.  Less voltage at the coil could create a problem with ignition coil saturation and spark quality.

(response) As Bagus says, verify that you have switched, 12V supply to that HEI distributor, not 12V in start key position and 7Vin key run position.
That distributor looks the same as the one I installed in my straight six.
My HEI also worked great at first, but then caused intermittent poor running.
I eventually discovered that the terminals in the HEI cap were pushing up away from my supply wire connectors. This caused an intermittent good/poor voltage supply to the HEI. It took me a week or two to find that issue...
Check those connections!!! I had to disassemble my distributor to find and fix the issue.
Do you have the factory tach? If so, watch the tach needle, it will give a clear indication of funky distributor performance.

Worth following these troubleshooting tips regarding inherent problems with aftermarket HEI distributors.  Take a peek...The GM HEI distributor has a 12-volt ignition source and also a tach pin.  Stock Jeep tachometers will not work with some distributor signals.  MSD is well versed on this issue.  Try the MSD tech line if you are having an issue with the tach function—or vice versa:  the tach is preventing the ignition from functioning properly.

(response) Best one so far Looking at your pics

  • new stock fuel pump, new quality fuel hoses. Should be good to go but I do not see a tank return, any idea what the hoses above the fuel tank look like? For the record long fuel hoses should be avoided as they crack and also melt in a fire, but that is a problem for a later date a slots of owners run them like that, rather than go to the FLAPS and get the right hard line (you can hand bend your own).

Totally agree about the use of double-flare fuel/brake grade lines down the frame.  Each of my books emphasizes use of double-flare tubing when fabricating long chassis fuel pipes.  If you don't want to form flares, buy pre-flared tubing with flare nuts in place.  Make sure unions between lines are brake and fuel grade.  I bubble flare any steel pipe to hose connection to keep hoses from slipping off the pipe.  The procedure is in my CJ Jeep Rebuilder's Manual:  1972-86 (Bentley Publishers).  I also use EFI grade fuel hose and clamps. 

  • HEI distributor which seems to be fed by that little bitty blue wire that goes off into the harness (I am not an expert of HEI, I presume that is the 12V feed and not the tach signal). Clearly not a stock wiring system, you need to check what is powering it. HEI needs steady battery voltage, not the ballasted voltage fed to the coil, and most users feed it from a relay to give it the best voltage quality. I would look at this feed first. Given the amperage it needs to be 12ga wire or you will get a voltage drop, check what size the feed wire is. You also need a good ground for the distributor to the engine and the engine to the battery.

Absolutely correct about GM-style HEI and 12-volt supply current.  12-gauge wire is safer, too.  Nothing lost...Agreed on ground circuits, too.  I historically ran 1/0 (welding grade, especially with onboard frequency welders) or at least battery cable grade grounds from battery to engine, to frame, to body in whatever sequence makes the best sense.  D.C. requires the same gauge and stamina on grounds as hot circuits.

  • Is that a one wire alternator? Your jeep, wire it how you want, but one wires have problems with charging when first started and under load as they cannot sense the system voltage further back in the wiring at the starter solenoid. As I said, your Jeep.

Had a recent one-wire alternator discussion on an I-H Scout conversion.  This may help clarify:  

 

  • Your hi fi is wired straight off the battery. Seems an obvious place to connect but with a 1 wire alternator you may have low voltage issues under load. this should all be connected at the starter solenoid. Multiple cables at the battery terminal are a PITA if you take your battery in and out in a rarely used Jeep, they become frayed and unreliable, which is why I connect multiples at the starter solenoid or in the case of grounds, at the starter motor bolt. Your Jeep, wire it how you want.

See my Scout exchange.  The one-wire can be routed to the solenoid.  Your Jeep uses the Motorcraft or time-honored "Ford style" solenoid.  Scout has a Delco-Remy starter with the heavy battery positive cable down to the solenoid mounted onto the starter motor.

I'm seeing several issues and concerns in these exchanges.  Which problem(s) are you still trying to solve here?  Ignition issues should be separated from fuel supply and carburetor issues.  EVAP and vacuum circuits tie to both ignition advance and fuel supply from the tank.  The alternator suddenly popped into the conversation, points well taken about the need for ample circuit voltage to the ignition; the lights and other draws require additional alternator current. 

What is the voltage reading of the ignition hot lead with the engine running?  What is the circuit voltage?  Engine warm, 13.6-14 volts or better should be available—or whatever the output amperage/voltage is expected to be from this alternator.

There is an instrument cluster voltage regulator that needs consideration.  This acts as a ballast for gauge stability but could also decrease available ignition voltage if the circuit wiring is wrong.  Be sure you have a clean 12-volt circuit from key to ignition distributor if you're running a GM-style aftermarket HEI.  Also, to be clear, a GM 230, 250 or 292 inline six HEI distributor does not use the same drive gear as a Jeep 232/258.  Many have tried to run GM OEM distributors in AMC sixes only to find that a stripped drive gear results.  You need an aftermarket distributor with a GM knock-off upper section and distinctly AMC/Jeep 232/258 lower section and drive gear.  The distributor must be built for a 232/258 AMC/Jeep inline six.

Separate the issues, and troubleshoot one section at a time...Moses

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