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I need help figuring out a noise that's driving me crazy. First a little history. I have an 83 CJ7. 4.2 and T4. I bought it about 5 years ago and have been restoring it since. I have done a frame off and replaced almost everything (ujoints, bearings ball joints etc.) It has a new bds 2.5 lift and m.o.r.e shackles that give it another 1/2". When i bought it she ran and shifted pretty good. Its been 5 years but im confident i did not hear any noise in the transmission before.  The only thing i did to the T4 was clean it up and changed the bearing retainer with a steel one beacuse the old aluminum one was galled. I got it all back together and running good but it has a noise. The driveshaft angle is too steep  so i thought maybe that had something to do with it. I tried driving around with just the front shaft in and it still made the noise. I'm going to get a double cardan shaft for it after I figure this out. It only does it with the clutch pedal depressed and the transmission in neutral while coasting. Can also hear it between gears when shifting. I took the transmission to a reputable guy who rebuilt it with all new bearings and brass synchros. I put it back and noise is still there. It really sounds like it's coming from the transmission  or in the bell housing. It also has new Luk clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing and flywheel. After only a few miles of driving it around the block there is small metal flakes in the oil. I know some is normal but that fast?  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Below is YouTube video of the noise.

 

 

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Here I have the rear wheels jacked up, the trans is in gear and the clutch pedal depressed. Not sure if this is normal.

 

 

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Hi, Jeepdog...Sounds like you've put a lot of work into your Jeep CJ-7!

1) I played through the 0:21 second video five times to catch the last few seconds and what appears to be a major issue:  The input shaft is floating end wise.  The tapered bearing appears to be moving inward, and if the shaft and bearing are not retained properly, the synchronizers will be out of alignment and could be dragging or scraping while the input shaft and mainshaft are flexing.  This would account for the brass.

2) The 0:07 second video sounds like something loose, possibly the pivot for the clutch release arm?  Or maybe a rattle between the release fork and the release bearing collar?  Or maybe a bearing collar I.D. too big for the bearing retainer?  Did you change the crankshaft pilot bearing?  Is it the right size for the nose end of the T4 input shaft/gear?  This might contribute to the clutch back-and-forth noise.  This could also be the input gear rattling between the front bearing and the bearing retainer.

3) The 0.36 second video sounds like the front/input gear is floating around and allowing the synchronizer pieces to flex and catch.  Have you seen any rub marks on the brass rings?  The front gear is not in proper alignment and is allowing other parts to move out of alignment.  The shaft is also running out of center when there is that degree of endplay.

The problem is most likely the placement and position of the input gear and/or the mainshaft is floating rearward.  Something is causing the front drive gear bearing to move forward and back in the retainer/bearing cup.  A snap ring could be missing/out of place, or there could be another cause for the shaft to be floating fore-and-aft.  The mainshaft must also align properly and stay aligned.

To help you understand the relationship of these parts and the need to shim the clutch gear/input bearing to achieve proper bearing preload, here is a vintage video that can help.  (You may be missing the shims!)  Start at 11:40 to prevent falling asleep in the earlier part of this training video. The illustration is actually a T5 Jeep unit, similar in most respects to your layout:

 

Thrust washers or input bearing shims could be missing and allowing the input or mainshaft to set rearward.  You replaced the front bearing retainer, look here first...Missing shims at the front bearing cup would permit the input gear to move forward and back.  If these parts do not line up with the shift forks and synchronizers, there will be interference and noise.  Also, the synchronizer plates/keys and the synchronizer springs must be positioned correctly during assembly.  If not, the keys will jump out of position and could be dragging...

Let us know what you find...Here for any questions!

Moses

 

 

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Thank you so much for your response and suggestions. Yes ii have put a lot of work in this Jeep and im ready to start driving it. I apologize for the first video of me turning the shafts. I did not have the rear housing on it that keeps the preload on the bearings. That is why it looks like there is so much side to side play. I made another video with it all tightened up posted below. About the bearing retainer. I did put shims back when i replaced it. I have also tried differnt sizes and played with the end play but its stil sounds  the same. I have another T4 that probably needs to be rebuilt. It sounds about the same. 

 

 

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Jeepdog...So you're confident that the end play/bearing preload are correct?  Is there radial play (runout) between the mainshaft's nose and the clutch/input gear's recessed bearing?  If you grab the mainshaft (not that easy to do when installed) and pull it up-and-down at the area of the 3rd/4th synchronizer, can you feel radial play or see any rocking between the input gear and mainshaft?  Or do the two shafts stay in straight alignment?

I asked about the pilot bearing at the rear of the crankshaft.  Does it support the nose of the input/clutch gear properly?  If not, this could allow the input gear to rock and bind the 3rd/4th gear synchronizer components.  Are the 3rd/4th synchronizer keys and springs staying in place and tensioned evenly?

Grab the exposed clutch release arm and wiggle it up and down.  The lever should rock or pivot only slightly on the release bearing if the collar and arm fit together properly.  If you feel excessive movement, fold back the arm's boot and see where the play exists.

Here is a forum Warner T5 rebuild thread that might also be helpful:

 

Let's keep pursuing this.  Another transmission is not always the fix, you have a lot of time, parts and sublet labor in this installed unit.

Moses

 

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In do not have a dial indicator but everything feels tight with no end play. The reading while turning the input shaft  with a torque wrench is within the  spec on the t4 video you provided. The pilot bushing is new and seems to be a good fit. I'll have to double check on any play with the mainshaft tomorrow and report back. I have the clutch throw out bearing etc out. I Will reinstall and check that for play but if remember correctly it did not have much play. Thanks again for the help. This forum is awesome.

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Thanks, Jeepdog...We make the effort...Your videos were very helpful, the photos, too!  From your comments, I can tell that you have been thorough in your approach. 

The noise does sound toward the front, Check the clutch disk hub for looseness, make sure the spline fit is correct between the clutch gear and disk hub.  With the transmission out, make sure the clutch hub is not damaged.  You should be able to make that call without removing the bellhousing and clutch cover.  

Check the stack height between the crankshaft pilot and the input/clutch gear.  (Measure through the clutch spline bore to the pilot.  Use a straightedge at the bellhousing face.  You're measuring depth.)  Make sure the "shim" (spacer plate) is in place between the bellhousing and engine block. 

Stack height takes the shim, bellhousing and crankshaft flange stickout into account.  The nose of the input/clutch gear should fit into the crankshaft pilot bearing correctly.  I'm not sure whether you're using the original engine/crankshaft or not.  Worth measuring the stack height to be sure the transmission is the right distance from the engine and crankshaft pilot.

Confirm that the input gear/shaft engages the splines and pilot bearing without bind and that the spline size matches the clutch hub splines (no spline play or backlash).  One of your videos sounded like a loose fit between the input shaft splines and the clutch hub splines.  If you have an extra T4 input shaft laying around, fit it into the clutch disk splines.  See if the spline fit is correct.

Did you account for the brass?  Do you see synchronizer damage?  Again, the mainshaft fit into the back side/pilot bearing on the clutch gear is important. 

Also make certain that the mainshaft snap rings are not loose.  Check for fore/aft movement of the synchronizer hubs on the mainshaft.  Make sure gears are not walking along the mainshaft.

Check the counter gear for endplay, too.  Be certain the counter gear fit is correct with no looseness or runout at the bearings.  Check for looseness at the front countershaft bearing...All of these checks can be done without disassembling the transmission.

Let us know what you find!

Moses

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Well I've been busy with the family but now I'm back at it.  While I had it out I opened it up again. I do not see any brass synchro as far as I can tell. I only pulled the one closest to the input shaft off and it looks fine. I didn't want to pull all the gears off. I think a press is needed and I do not have one. I swapped the counter gear with one from the other t4 I have and put it back together The clutch hub and spline fit are good. Input shaft feels tight in pilot bushing. I installed my old clutch and pressure plate (which is in good shape) just to rule that out. I installed a cv driveshaft tomalsomrule that out. Put her back in today. Noise is still there. Here is another video with the rear tires up transmission in gear and clutch pedal pressed. I'm spinning rear wheels.

 

 

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Are you now confident about the front bearing and shim pack fit, Jeepdog?  We discussed this with the AMC/Jeep tech video and all.  Is this where you need the bearing press?  Does the input gear line up properly with the counter gear?

Again, as we discussed earlier, this forum exchange is helpful for confirming front bearing preload before "buttoning up" the transmission:

Moses

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The front bearing feels tight with no end play. The guy that rebuilt the transmission set the preload.  I believe i need a press to completely disassemble everything  from the mainshaft to inspect all the gears and synchros. The input and counter gear are lined up also.

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Jeepdog...I've done very well with a Harbor Freight 20-ton press that goes on sale regularly (maybe now?).  It comes with a hydraulic bottle jack that I updated with HF's air over hydraulic jack for faster work, more volume and consistent control.  You can get by with the bottle jack for some time, certainly for this project. 

The H-frame press is cheaper than buying one-third the steel to make a press yourself.  (Politics aside, we'll see whether these prices last with the proposed steel and aluminum tariffs, folks need to make up their minds about benefits and liabilities of buying off-shore steel products.)  If you have room at your shop and the budget, here's what works for axle and transmission rebuilding:

1)  https://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-shop-press-32879.html  [Can get by well enough, may need bearing separator/puller below.]

2) https://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-62593.html or https://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-air-over-hydraulic-jack-95553.html

3) Improvised air-over-hydraulic upgrade:  https://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-air-hydraulic-bottle-jack-69593.html  [A dream come true, can be used manually or air-over.  Watch for periodic sales on these jacks.]

I'm planning a full-shop layout and tool HD video for Vimeo On Demand.  Based upon 50-plus years of buying tools and equipping my shop(s), I'll cover necessary automotive service and diagnostics tools, selecting equipment and allocating floor space within a small shop or home garage.  Improvising alternative tool solutions will be illustrated.  The aim is to support 'DIY' mechanics and smaller shop owners who need professional results—regardless of their budgets...See my pending blog, "'DIY' Versus Subletting Your Automotive Repair Work".  If you're on the fence about doing your own work (DIY), this may tip the scale one way or the other. The DIY argument can often win the heart of a spouse—resulting in a tool budget!

Moses

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Well it looks like I'll pull it again, disassemble and go through everything very thorough. I'm going to buy a small parts kit with all the clips, washers, springs etc. I have been looking for an excuse to by a press anyway.

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Jeepdog...You won't regret the H-frame press, in fact you'll wonder how you got by without it.  The HF press plates are adequate, some argue you need better ones, mine have lasted over 20 years by not over-stressing the set.  You can improvise on fixtures, often with spare steel plate stock, impact sockets or black steel pipe.  Items like black pipe "sleeves" can often serve well, you'll use your creativity here.  If you hit an obstacle, let us know, I've found creative fixture solutions and workarounds for many press projects.

Make sure that you set up the synchronizer key springs by the book.  This can be a source of trouble.  If springs are not in proper positions, the keys can jump out of the hub.  Hub and sleeve orientation are crucial, too.

Sorry that you're pulling the unit again.  Do you have a transmission jack for the transfer case/transmission unit?  While we're spending your life savings on tools, you might consider a transmission jack.  A cost-saving solution is a floor jack transmission adapter.  Here is a typical unit listed at eBay.  Make sure the adapter post fits your jack cup's bore size:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Transmission-Jack-Adapter-1-2-ton-Capacity-TRANSFORM-Automotive-Floor-Jack-/152885857349?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Keep us posted...

Moses

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I got it pulled and disassembled.  I do not see anything missing or damaged. The synchro rings look good although there is still some brass flakes in the oil..Here is a bunch of pics. 

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I also took apart the other t4 I had so I could compare. I did see a difference in the main shaft.  The first pic is the shaft from my Jeep and the second is the extra t4. See the groove in the shaft on the second one. First I thought it was not supposed to be there but looking at pictures online of others it is. 

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Jeepdog...Any signs of tooth contact issues or alignment between the mainshaft's gears and the counter gear?  Odd tooth contact patterns?  The second mainshaft's scoring looks like either gear cocking or transfer case/transmission mis-alignment.  We'd have to inspect the inside bore of the gear that rode in this position...Lubrication has always been a controversy with the T4/T5.  I was never a fan of the ATF lube approach.  ATF is not an EP lubricant, and the viscosity is weird for a manual transmission with these tolerances and clearances.

With the parts disassembled to this point, insert the mainshaft's pilot nose into the clutch/input gear bearing at the back end of the clutch/input gear.  Check for radial runout or wobble at this shaft engagement point.  Hold the two shafts on a level plane when you do this check, simulate the relationship of the shafts when the box is assembled.

Share what you find...We'll walk through the rest of the pieces...Is there anything suspicious about the fit between the transmission and transfer case?  The output bearing in the transmission?  Run-out of the mainshaft at the back end? 

Place the mainshaft in a pair of V-blocks.  If you did buy the HF press, the cast V-blocks are handy for this test:  Check the mainshaft for run-out (radial) as you rotate the shaft in the V-blocks.  See whether the output splines stay on center as you rotate the shaft slowly.  A simple pointer arrangement or use of a roller nose on a dial indicator can help with this check.

Turn the transfer case U-joint yokes and check for backlash in the gears, signs of excessive play or a transfer case input bearing that is loose...I listened again to the March 13th video you posted.  This sounds like a sloppy release arm or hardware loose at the nose end of the transmission.   The noise sounds much like a bolt head rattling around in the bellhousing or converter housing when the flywheel or torque converter snaps a bolt.  Since you have the pedal depressed in the video, the release arm and release bearing should have tension applied, which should rule out loose parts noise at the arm or bearing.

I would look loose hardware floating around within the clutch cover.  The test you ran in the video had the crankshaft, flywheel and clutch cover stationary.  Only the clutch disk would be rotating while that rattle occurred

1) Is there something  rattling with the rotation of the clutch disk?  This takes me back to my comments about the clutch disk hub being loose.  Maybe the torsion springs in the disk hub are loose or broken. 

2) Inspect the clutch disk hub now that the transmission is out...Take some photos of the raised section of the clutch disk hub.  The raised hub section should be facing the transmission.

3) Check for broken disk hub springs or a severed spring steel blade that supports the friction material...Make sure that the O.D. of the clutch gear nose is nearly the same measurement as the I.D. of the crankshaft pilot bearing.  Be sure from the stack height that the nose engages the pilot bearing fully.

4) I would remove the bellhousing (easier now with the transmission and transfer case removed); remove the clutch cover.  Make sure there is no hardware floating between the clutch disk and flywheel hub, rattling against the flywheel/crankshaft bolts.

Your clear photos help...Thanks!

Moses

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The last time I had the trans out I took out the bellhousing and clutch. I did not see any loose springs or even any marks that would indicate something hitting or rubbing. I even installed my old clutch disc and pressure plate. I am definitely going to take it off again and thoroughly check it out. I want to put the new clutch back in. I'll post some pictures later.

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I took the bellhousing and clutch off. I found that the spacer is bent beside the hole where one of the dowel pins go through. There is also some scratches where the flywheel could have been rubbing. Could this have been enough to knock the trans out of alignment  and cause the clutch to rub when disengaged? There also seems to be some flywheel teeth that are chipped on the corner. Maybe the bent spacer was causing the starter to be out of alignment  too. Other than that everything  seems to look good. 

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Jeepdog... I like your thoroughness and patience with this project...Neither clutch disk looks "bad"...If the springs are not loose, this clutch assembly looks normal. The scraping on the shim plate was worth noting.  Also, the alignment between the transmission and engine/crankshaft centerline is critical. 

Questions: 

1) The release bearing must be square with the disk face.  Is the release arm pulling back far enough to not have the release bearing or arm "rattle" from interference with the clutch cover fingers?  The release bearing face must be square with the clutch disk fingers.   

2) If you have mechanical clutch linkage, is the release arm return spring pulling the bearing far enough back from the clutch cover fingers when you release the pedal?

3) Does the pedal height (adjustable) allow the release arm to come back all the way?

4) Is there a possibility that the release bearing is pressing too far inward when you depress the pedal, causing the cover fingers to drag on the disk hub?  Are there marks or signs that the fingers are hitting the disk hub?  I don't see marks on the inside of the cover fingers.  Are there any signs of interference on the raised portion of the hub (facing the transmission)?

Moses 

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I haven't looked at the linkage and release bearing yet. I have started to put the transmission back together. I purchased a small parts kit to replace all the clips and washers. Also got a dial indicator for the bearing preload. Is this synchro slider supposed to go over this far. The keys pop out when i slide it over.  I guess the shift fork wouldn't slide it that far with the cover on.

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Jeepdog...To allay your concerns, measure the amount of fork movement at the shift tower and fork:  The shifter should not be able to move the clutch hub this far.  Keys/inserts popping out is a clear sign of excessive hub movement, which you can only do on the bench.  (Be careful not to move the hub this far!)  The concerns with synchronizer clutch hubs and synchronizer assemblies are:  1) the spring orientation, 2) the hub orientation, and 3) the inserts/keys being in place and indexed with the notches in the brass blocking rings. 

If the synchronizer hub is facing the right way, and if you installed the springs in correct orientation, you may be able to rotate the synchronizer ring(s) to the slotted section(s) and index the inserts/keys—without disassembling the entire gear assembly.  Make sure the springs index properly with the inserts/keys!  If the inserts/keys are not in correct position with the springs in proper orientation, the inserts/keys will not function correctly...

In the photo below, the synchronizer spring orientation is clear.  Pay especially close attention to the two springs; make sure the inserts/keys and springs are correctly positioned as you slide the hub back into position. 

Pay particularly close attention to the spring orientations.  The factory "turn the assembly over..." is often misinterpreted.  In this application, the nub at the middle of each spring must locate at the same insert/key!!!  The open space at the spring ends should be in the same position at each side of the hub.  If you stagger these springs, the keys will pop out in service:

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With care, you should be able to confirm the parts orientation as you slide the hub back to center.  Do not damage the insert keys...You've discovered that you cannot move the hub to its extremes.  Be aware that the insert/key and spring orientation can be a common assembly error.  Best to get it right the first time!

Lastly, make sure the synchro hubs and the shifter forks are in their middle/neutral positions before mating these parts together...

Moses

 

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I have the clutch assembly and bellhousing back on. I was able to have my wife push the clutch pedal in (trans not installed yet) while I watched how far the fork and throw out bearing push the pressure plate fingers in. It definitely  does not hit the clutch plate. One thing I did notice is the bearing slightly rests on the fingers with the pedal disengaged. The new fork boot seems to prevent it from going back. I  also have a new return spring on the fork but its not strong enough to overcome the boot. 

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Jeepdog...Glad you're making progress on the T4 project...Good you noticed that the clutch release bearing does not retract far enough to clear the clutch cover fingers.  This is not acceptable.  Is the bellhousing too far forward?  I cannot see the "shim"/spacer between the bellhousing and engine block.  Is this just the camera angle?

Is there room on the front bearing retainer for the throw-out bearing to release further?  Make sure the bearing is not hitting/bottoming at the transmission end of the retainer snout when the clutch pedal is released...If the boot were not in place, would the arm release sufficiently?

Moses 

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The bellhousing spacer is there. There is plenty of room on the bearing retainer. Yes the arm will release sufficiently with the boot removed. It's a new Crown boot. 

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Ugh...You've backed off (shortened) the release rod (heim joint on threaded rod) to make sure there is enough clearance for the release bearing to move away from the fingers? 

Will the boot soften and provide the give you need?  Is the boot material thicker than stock?  Sounds like all else works fine...

Keep in mind that the release bearing will need even more return room as the clutch disk wears normally.  The cover fingers move outward toward the transmission as the disk thins. 

This kind of issue with the CJ mechanical style clutch linkage could be the arm's pivot point standing out too far.  Is this the original/stock release arm and pivot ball?  The original bellhousing?  Is the pivot ball seated fully?  See the diagram below for 1983 Jeep CJ 4.2L clutch linkage.  You have the aftermarket release rod, but is your release arm and pivot ball (with internal spring) in place as shown?  #36 is the arm; #37 is the pivot ball; #38 is the spring that keeps the release arm riding on the pivot ball:

image.png

Were you able to get the synchro inserts back in place without disassembling the mainshaft?  I was optimistic that you would resolve that issue.

This has been a project!

Moses

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I was able to get the synchro keys back in and yes this has been quite a project and I'm ready to get passed it. Thank you for helping me troubleshoot it.

Bellhousing and fork is all original. Fork spring and ball are there and are new. I shortened the return spring to make it pull the fork back a little more and I hope the boot will soften with time. That's the rod links clutch linkage upgrade. The original stuff was pretty worn out and yes it's shortened to give enough clearance. 

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Well I got it all back together and the noise is still there. I don't think it is the transfer case but I have a friend who has an extra one that I am going to borrow. I'll install his and give that a try.

 

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Jeepdog...The good news:  You're now expert at blueprint rebuilding a Jeep T4/T5 transmission.  Read through these troubleshooting suggestions:

1) You addressed the driveshaft angle issue, right?  How much chassis lift does your CJ have?  Are each of the driveshafts the correct length for your chassis lift?  I know you tested the vehicle with a driveshaft removed.  Each shaft, one at a time?  (Testing the front shaft by itself would require use of 4WD high range.)  Is a U-joint or flange binding? 

2) With radical lifts, the joints often have too little relief space when the shaft is angled and rotating.  There are steeper angle flanges that address this issue.  Look at the transfer case rear exit flange for any signs of rubbing or interference.  The front shaft, being longer, is not often a problem, but look for signs of interference there, too.

3) Make certain the each driveshaft is in phase.  By this I mean the U-joint crosses align with each other.  Sometimes, when a driveshaft is separated at the coupler, the shaft pieces get reassembled with the splines and U-joints misaligned.

4) Yes, the transfer case could be a trouble spot.  Has there been any sign of transfer case problems?  The Dana 300 is a rugged unit, but they do have wear points like shifter fork slippers and such.  Do you have a twin-stick conversion?

If you do get into the transfer case, let's open a new topic and pursue it...I cover Dana 300 transfer case rebuilding steps in the Jeep CJ Rebuilder's Manual: 1972-86.  That book or a Jeep factory shop manual would provide the guidelines you need.  You'll find Dana 300 rebuilds here at the forums as well, some with excellent photos.  The forums search box is helpful, set it for All Content and use "Dana 300" keywords.

Moses

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It just has a 2.5" lift and 1/2" in shackles. I did drive it with one shaft at a time with the same results. The rear shaft is a new double cardan shaft I had a local shop  build. They are both in phase. 

 

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Jeepdog...This is one member's step-by-step rebuild of the Dana 300:

The lift is mild and should not create an issue...As a point of interest, when installing a double-Cardan rear driveshaft with a single-Cardan pinion U-joint, I rotate the rear axle housing/pinion shaft angle to 1-1/2 to 2 degrees:  not "straight" (0-degrees) like some attempt, as this will not allow the needle rollers in the pinion flange U-joint to rotate.  Premature joint failure will result from a 0-degree pinion angle. 

Is your Dana 300 stock?  Do you have a twin-stick conversion or any other modifications?  Is there adequate boot clearance at the shifter?

Moses 

 

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I did not mess with the pinion angle. I would need some shims for that correct? The Dana 300 is stock and not a twin stick. I haven't even tried putting a shift boot on it yet since I put it back together. I picked up the other transfer case today and will install it tomorrow.

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Jeepdog...Yes, for changing the rear axle pinion angle you will be placing wedge-shaped shims between the axle's spring perches and the spring.  Use steel wedges, not aluminum, angled evenly at each rear spring. 

Shim wedges are available in the aftermarket, a common need.  Make sure the wedge width and spring center bolt hole size are correct for your CJ's rear springs. 

Again, visualize the rear axle's pinion shaft in straight alignment with the driveshaft (side view).  The Jeep must be at curb/static vehicle height with normal weight on the springs.  I take the pinion shaft (side view) angle downward at the pinion flange until the rear U-joint angle is 1.5 to 2-degrees.  This may not seem like much angle, but it's necessary for U-joint life.

The reasoning is simple:  Your double-Cardan CV joint (front of the rear driveline) angles cancel each other out.  So the rear single joint does not need its former angle.  But it does need a very slight angle to keep the U-joint's needle bearings moving and lubricating.

Moses

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I put the other transfer case in today and noise is there. I started looking at the clutch again like in one of my previous videos. It's in gear and clutch pedal pressed in. The clutch sure rattles around a lot. That's got to be the noise. When I put the disc on the shaft with the trans out it has minimal play but installed it moves all over. I also noticed the bellhousing moving back or flexing when the pedal is depressed. I'll post videos of both. 

 

Here is the bellhousing flex.

 

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Here is me moving the clutch disc around with a screwdriver through  the clutch fork hole. I have the rear wheels jacked up the trans in gear and the clutch pedal pressed in.

 

 

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Jeepdog...In the first video, is the bellhousing moving or the flywheel?  If the flywheel is moving fore/aft while securely attached to the crankshaft flange, you have a crankshaft that is moving fore/aft.  This would indicate a worn crankshaft thrust bearing, or the crankshaft main thrust bearing is either out of place or worn.   Did you have the engine apart? 

If I'm right about the flywheel moving, and if the flywheel is securely flush with the crankshaft flange, check the crankshaft end float at either the flywheel or the front/crank pulley end.  Normal crankshaft endplay for a 1983 Jeep 258/4.2L is 0.0015" to 0.0065" (think 0.001"+ to 0.006"+).  This is not much.  If the crankshaft is moving fore-and-aft much more than this amount, you would have a significant amount of engine rattle and risk of damage to the connecting rods, crankshaft bearings, etc.  Measure the crankshaft end float.

In the second video, the back-and-forth disk movement could simply be the input gear rotating.  This would be the movement between the input, cluster and other gears.  Some rotational movement is normal.  The disk should also move fore-and-aft some with the clutch pedal depressed:  the cover's pressure plate is pulled away from the disk's friction face, which allows the disk to "float" some on the input splines some.  There is also some rocking flex in the disk. 

If the crankshaft pilot bearing, the input gear's nose and the input gear splines are all okay, the disk movement would be normal.  The input gear's nose diameter must match the crankshaft pilot bearing inner diameter.  The input gear and disk should not be moving out of center if the input gear is supported properly between the crankshaft pilot bearing and the transmission input bearing.

Please share what you find...I'm focused on crankshaft movement fore-and-aft and whether the disk is supported on center by the input gear.

Now we're getting somewhere...Thanks for posting the graphic videos.

Moses

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It's kind of diceaving in the video but its the bellhousing that is moving. You can see the starter move along with it.

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Ummm...No crankshaft/flywheel movement?  These questions come up:

1) So are all of the bellhousing bolts intact, the thread integrity of the bolts and block okay?  (Bolts are in good condition and not "stretching"?)   It's virtually impossible for the bellhousing itself to flex, there has to be something yielding here.  The cast aluminum bellhousing would break before stretching this much.

2) The clutch finger resistance shouldn't be great enough to force the bellhousing to separate from the block.  The pedal pressure would be enormous, and you have mechanical clutch linkage that would create a lot of pedal pressure/resistance and sensation.  Is the clutch cover stock replacement force/pressure?  Do you feel a lot of resistance at the clutch pedal?  

3) Do you see an actual gap between the bellhousing and the shim/spacer or the engine block with the clutch pedal depressed?  Is the housing sliding or is it moving straight away from the block?

4) Are the bellhousing bolts too long, running out of threads and stopping before the housing is flush with the shim/spacer and block?  Does the bellhousing appear to fit flush and tightly against the shim and block without applied pedal pressure?

4) Are the block bellhousing dowels in position?  Are the bellhousing's dowel bores concentric, a good (i.e. snug) fit to the dowels?  Are the dowels preventing the bellhousing from fitting snuggly against the shim and block (dowels too long, distorted or warped)?

5) Is there any kind of gap or interference preventing the housing from fitting flush—like dowels bottoming in the bellhousing bores?

Moses

 

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Well here's where I'm at. I am really embarrassed and hate to admit it but somehow  I left out the 2 bellhousing bolts that go through the dowel pins and into the lower holes on the engine (The ears that stick out). I don't know where they went or why i didn't notice. I threw in some new bolts and of course that's the cause of the bellhousing flex. All that chatter is also gone. There is some noise also with the clutch in and trans is in gear while coasting. . Sounds like rotating gears.  Maybe normal gears turning noise? Coasting while  in gear the rear wheels are spinning the driveshaft through the tcase and then causing all the gears in the transmission to spin. Also I've been  driving it with the tunnel cover and boots off. I put them on and can't really hear it. What do you think? I can get a video of it later. 

I'm still in shock. I can't believe I went through all this over 2 bolts. I guess one positive is I can rebuild a t4 with my eyes closed.

 

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No need to be embarrassed!  This has been a real learning experience...Yes, and  you're now expert on the T4/T5 transmission rebuild, too!

Many engines have solid dowel pins in the block or bellhousing.  The AMC engines have hollow pins that align the block and bellhousing;  these hollow dowels also provide a bore for bolts to pass through.  These bolts are vital when you consider the bellhousing-to-block bolt count.  I'm very glad you resolved the issue, that's what matters!

Noise with the floor pan out is always amplified.  If you hear nothing with the cover in place, there's likely nothing wrong.  (Carpet or floor mats add even more muting.)  You were probably listening to normal noise of the transfer case gears and/or transmission gear sets.  You have no other reason to suspect trouble after the conscientious work that you performed.

Correct gear lube can make a difference when it comes to transmission/transfer case noise.  The Dana 300 requires EP gear lubricant while the T4 transmission calls for ATF.  I'm not a big fan of ATF in manual gearboxes, and we can discuss that further.  For now, get some miles on that Jeep!  Be sure everything works well and reliably, then have some fun!

Moses 

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I'm pleased to hear this and certain that those close to the project are happy as well...Glad this worked out, Jeepdog!

Keep us posted!

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