What's Known About the Jeep CJ10?

[ian cj10]

H i guy new here as you would have guessed ive had my cj10 for about 6 months or so & finding info on them is nearly impossible i was hoping someone here might know a few things about them it seems to be a fusion of a cj with an fsj

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Hi, Ian!  Welcome to the forums...Would really like to know more about your "[C]J10".  Photos of the powertrain and axles would be helpful...Is this an Australian right hand drive edition?

 

When I wrote the Jeep Owner's Bible, the CJ10 was considered an industrial off-shoot, and much of the research pointed to its use as an airport tractor for moving planes around.  Since there was no broadly used civilian counterpart at North America, I elected to minimize the model's exposure. 

 

Your vehicle looks very much intact and functional.  The bed is intriguing.  Was that part of the original equipment?  What is this vehicle's history if known?

 

Here is an informative article by my colleague, Jim Allen, for Four-Wheeler Magazine:  http://www.fourwheeler.com/project-vehicles/129-1210-the-elusive-jeep-cj-10/.  The vehicle did seem destined for overseas and out-of-U.S. sales through VAM.  Sadly, the sale of AMC/Jeep diminished the demand and production capability.

 

I'd be happy to help identify your equipment from any photos you can furnish...Thanks much for joining us and sharing!

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses thanks for the reply i had found that site already along with the few other bits of info but nobody seems to know anything about parts interchange for this model add to that no parts suppliers even know the cj10 exists even here in aus where most of them ended up

the bed or tray as we call it  from what i have been able to figure out was fitted here in aus but nearly all examples ive seen have this exact same tray and so i asume they were all fitted in the same factory that ive heard was in queensland where assembly work was done

i shall endevour to get more pics soon i know my rear diff is a dana 60 front is a dana 44 gearbox has been swapped out for a t5 tranfer case i asume is the original np208

i am currently rebuilding the steering box but can not get the correct bearing its an encapsulated needle roller with a flare at one end but i have managed to get one the same dimensions but without the flared end so ill have to do a little fabrication to make sure the bearing seats in the correct possition

ill post pics of it when i get it from the bearing shop

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

the lowest vin number car ive ever had

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Wow!  First boatload to Australia, Ian...The interesting part of this is familiar Jeep CJ components from the '70s/'80s.  The 4.2L/258 inline six, the dash and instrumentation, this is essentially the CJ-7 or CJ-8 on steroids. 

 

Seems there may have been an identity crisis.  The Dana 44 front axle is J-10 1/2-ton full size Jeep truck.  The Dana 60 rear is a real bonus, as these were 3/4-ton J-20 truck derivative!  The transmission is likely the Tremec 177 that Jim Allen describes, and this is a lighter duty CJ item. The transfer case, if an NP208 chain drive type, is J-10 derivative.  (CJs of that era used the helical gear Dana 300.  The later YJ Wrangler and the XJ Cherokee used the NP207 and NP231.)  Take a peek at the round I.D. tag on the transfer case unit...The brake master cylinder is actually full-size J-truck origin.

 

This is great insight into a very rare Jeep 4x4!  AMC/Jeep was apparently experimenting with a niche market here, and the CJ-10 does use some quality materials.  The bed looks export design, actually Asian market.  This is clearly not a CJ-8 Scrambler despite the simultaneous production of the CJ-8 at the same time!  The front end/body is unique and predates the rectangular headlamp YJ Wrangler.

 

Windshield looks CJ.  Hood looks CJ.  Lots of parts to go around!  The emblems ("J10") were pirated from the J-10 pickup of the time, surprised they did not use a bona fide "CJ-10" emblem.  Perhaps AMC/Jeep saved a few dollars here with existing tools.  The military plane movers may have been part of AM General production and marketing...Airplane moving would account for the Dana 44 front axle (with disc brakes?) and Dana 60 rear axle (with drum brakes?).

 

The 6-stud wheels are Jeep J-10 pickup or Jeep Grand Wagoneer derivative.  This hints that the rear axle is a semi-floating Dana 60.  That would be consistent with some 3/4-ton or heavy-duty half-ton pickup applications.  Is the rear axle a semi-floater with 6-stud wheels?  Full-floaters were typically 8-stud wheels.

 

The 258/4.2L engine does appear to have emissions items like EGR and PCV.  Is this a Motorcraft ignition and Carter BBD carburetor?  No ECU or vacuum circuit maze?  No solenoid gangs?  No catalytic converter?  Overseas emissions were far less demanding than U.S. EPA or California!

 

Have you weighed this truck?  Curious how much mass is involved with the heavy duty axles.  The weak link in the chain was the Tremec 177 transmission.  The T5 replacement is no surprise.  Unless a World Class unit from an H.O. Ford Mustang, however, the Jeep T-5 is also on the light duty side.  Though not known for extraordinary stamina, the NP208 was used in 1/2- and 3/4-ton trucks here in the U.S.

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses a few more pics the ignition system & carb also the disc on the transfer case & the swivel hub ill take pics of the brake when i next pull the wheels off the rear diff is 6 stud & is lsd brake are front disc rear drum set up

i havent personally weighed it but does have a tare weight of 1920 kg on the side as this was required by law at one time but now the cops have computers in there cars its no longer required

not much in the way of emission control on the old girl

ignition is as you said as with the carb

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Ian, this is very interesting!  The emissions are minimal, typical of export models.  U.S. CJ owners of that era battled with an ECU, vacuum advance constraints, a BBD with stepper motor and electronically controlled fuel enrichment, a catalytic converter and more!  You have, essentially, a late '70s U.S. system with the conventional Motorcraft distributor and module and a BBD carburetor without emissions hardware.  Simple, easy to service!  I'm guessing no catalytic converter on the exhaust?  Or is there an Australian cat requirement and Pulse Air?  It does have EGR, and that's actually a useful and "passive" device.

 

The NP208 is original as per the "208 AM" designation.  This will be an easy vehicle to maintain.  You'll need to know the J-10 truck versus CJ Jeep pieces.  Curious to see the rear axle shaft flanges when you pull the wheels at the rear.  I'd like to see if this is a Dana 60 semi-floater with FSJ axle shafts and 6-bolt flanges.  If so, this could be the Holy Grail axle conversion for an FSJ owner wanting a Dana 60 rear axle!  I've considered a Grand Wagoneer and Cummins 5.9L ISB conversion, and your rear axle could be the missing link for a 6-bolt, semi-floater Dana 60!  Doubt there are many of these axles in the U.S., possibly surplus from the airplane movers.

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses 

there is no cat on the exhaust

ill try to check the axle flange later this week & get some pics of it for you

regarding the aircraft tugs i have read that they actually have a dana 70 in the rear & no front diff there transfer case has no high range either only what ive read on the net so i cant confirm it personally

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

http://cjcs-supply.net/Jeep_CJ-10_Diesel_Projec.html

try this url this guys doing a cj 10a aircraft tug resto-mod

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

this is a cool mod a cj7 grill added to the cj10 good to know they fit 

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Interesting...I like the 4x4 conversion on the tug project.  This is a tremendous amount of work, the owner must be very motivated!  The CJ7 grille looks right in its place on the other CJ10.  Very attractive rig with plenty of front lighting!

 

With 2,500 units possibly in U.S. surplus, there are prospects.  Parts might be available for awhile...The tugs are only 2WD, though, which requires considerable work and modifications to make into a 4x4.  I like your "factory" 4x4 approach much better!

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses this is the tare weight (vehicle) ,aggregate weight (vehicle plus payload) & combined weight (vehicle plus payload plus towed load) in kilograms

give an idea of the vehicles capabilities

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Very stout powertrain, axle and frame rating! This is a truck, not a mere utility vehicle. Interesting marketing angle for Jeep! Too bad they did not have the time to pursue this model. The CJ-8 Scrambler was more a lengthened utility 4x4 in the tradition of the CJ-6. Your truck is a beast by comparison. Many CJ-7 and CJ-8 owners strive to build the kind of axle stamina that Jeep put beneath the CJ-10. Does the CJ-10's frame have much more to offer?

If you get the vehicle on a hoist at some point, I'd really like to see the frame design and rail/crossmember modular sections. Some photos would provide a means for comparison to the CJ-7/8 and the J-10 pickup. Curious where AMC/Jeep or AM General went with this frame.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

steering box all back together & working well so ill get it out of the shed tomorrow ill try to get some pics of the brakes & chassis if i get time then ive got to get it packed up for a weeks holiday it'll be a 3000+ kilometer round trip hauling a whole camp site on its back should be a good work out for the old girl

weve been over it changed gearbox & transfer fluids checked diff oils & done the engine oil & filters & replaced the belts & radiator cap so i'm hoping for a trouble free run up & back

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Exciting, Ian...Sounds trip ready!  Keep us posted on the holiday trip.  See the travel forums, it would be great to see photos of your travels there...GoPro videos?

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

i took a few pics of the chassis at the rear end not the best photos but im not expecting it to go up on a hoist for a while maybe when it gets its next set of tyres ill get some good underside pics

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Hi, Ian!  Great photos...The frame has J-truck origins, this is not a "CJ frame".  CJs of this vintage were boxed frames with lighter modular sections.  This frame has traditional FSJ appearance of channel rails and stout cross members.  Again, this truck was intended for some heavy duty usage!

 

Moses

[ian cj10]

Looking for more information on the Saginaw steering gear issue?  The discussion on the Saginaw steering gear seal leak and related issues continues as a new topic at: 

Hi Moses ive had a seal blow out in the steering box i have no idea why but ill give it all a good clean & polish the shaft & replace the seals

 

while i was at it i got carried away & pulled the engine out to put the 4.6 stroker ive had sitting in the corner of the shed in it so i took some pics of the empty engine bay to show you notice that the front 1/2 of the chasis is boxed back to the back end of the gear box

i bought an xj the other day it was only $1000 & came with a dead 1 for parts but it gets hot on the beach but is ok on the road

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

i cleaned up the shaft from the steering box today & it looked worse after cleaning it up with fine paper so i took it to a local engineering workshop theyll build it up with bronze then remachine it even though bronze will be softer i imagine it will still last a long time

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Bronze in the area of the seal should be okay, Ian.  My concern is heat and the case hardening of the shaft at the nearby spline area.  I'm guessing that the buildup process is lower temperature and will not "normalize" or "anneal" the adjacent shaft metal?  Share the process and how they implement the buildup without removing case.

The stroker 4.6L build is just what that hefty Jeep CJ10 needs!  You'll really like the power improvement...

This Jeep XJ Cherokee is a phenomenal buy, very clean!  What's that currently in U.S. dollars?  Parts rig thrown into the deal!  Let's solve that cooling issue...Post a topic if you need XJ input at our Cherokee forum.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

im expecting the 4.6 will be a big improvement & possibly better fuel economy as ill be using a much better carby

i think that the reason theyre not building with weld & machining is to reduce heat ive had work done by them on my bobcat & excavator without any problems so i trust they know what theyre doing at least they should its there job to know these things

will post in xj forum

 

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Good news, Ian!  Please describe your 4.6L build:  compression ratio (piston and rod combination), camshaft choice and the "carby" planned...Curious how you've built the 4.6L stroker for this usage.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

im not 100% sure on all the details about the 4.6 as i didnt build it i picked it it up for $500 from a guy who removed it to put an Ls1 in his j20 he said he only did about 5000 kms on it(3000 miles) & was built from a low km 4.0 with the crank ,rods & head from a good 4.2 it also retains the stock 4.0 cam & pistons i think he said its a 97 block he told me it ran fine & made really good power i wasnt able to see it running but he seemed honest enough & it was only $500 so i took the risk

the carby ill be using is a motorcraft carb its been fully refurbished & looks like new i wasnt going to use 1 of the old 350 holleys if got on the shelf theyre a bit long in the tooth now

hopefully ill get time next week to get it all together & see what its like 

works a bit flat out at the moment now weve come out of winter & everbody wants everything done before xmas but i should find time

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Ian, the 4.6L build is right on for the CJ10 application!  A lower compression and stock camshaft should work well.  I much prefer the Motorcraft carburetor's behavior at various altitudes and its overall tune simplicity.  Good choice there!  I'm guessing the Motorcraft is either Jeep or Ford application?  What engine displacement was the donor?

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses 

the carb came from an ebay seller (gronk performance) the info he gave me lead me to believe he knows what hes doing the carb is set up for the 4.6 this seems to be what he specializes in

its had the electric choke removed with linkages supplied for a manual choke thats was my preference i also got the adapter to the 4.0 throttle body in case i go down that road

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Keep us posted on the stroker build and 4.6L install, Ian!  When do you plan to have the CJ10 running again?

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

i got the shaft back today it looks got to definately better than it did thats for sure

wont get a chance to fit any thing back up till next week im off to a cold chisel (iconic aussie rock band not sure how well known thry are in the states) this weekend

i took a pic but it fails when i try to load it ill try taking another pics & see if that loads

cheers  ian

 

success i had to get the camera out the pics from the phone wouldnt load

 

Wow, what a process!...Bronze should be hard enough to hold up against neoprene and not groove.  (Brass would be much softer.)  What was the cost?  The finish machining looks precise.  

You get to keep the original gear mesh pattern this way...Curious to see the higher res photos...Thanks for sharing the pic!

Moses

 

ill let you know what it cost when the bill arrives i didnt ask for a price as i needed it done & theyve always been reasonable

tried the higher res pics again no luck sorry

cheers  ian

 

Hi Moses i got the bill today came in at $146 a bit more than id hoped but labour costs are high in aus & it had to be done ,finding another shaft in good nick would have been next to impossible being right hand drive & built in limited numbers

cheers  ian

 

Ian...Not sure what the exchange value is in U.S.D. but the work looks very good, and there's machining as well as the bronze overlay process.

Ah, the right hand drive issue would be trying.  The left hand drive gear is basic and common, rotary valve Saginaw design has been a mainstay since 1959 in G.M. and other makes, a popular and reliable application.  In your case, this bronzing is a good approach.  Mixing used or new and used steering gear parts is risky.  The renewed shaft will restore the wear pattern of the power rack and sector teeth.  

Set the gear up to specification (precise worm shaft bearing preload and correct over-center sector mesh adjustment), and you should be in good shape!  During installation in the chassis, make sure the gear is on center with the front wheels pointed straight ahead!

Moses

 

Hi Moses

well the steering box has gone again i havent pulled it out yet to see what happened but it got be confused i thought that repair would have lasted for years i might do some research to see if its the same box in a rhd fsj theyll be a bit easier to source i would imagine

what a pain in the butt

cheers  ian

 

 

Hi, Ian...Did the sector seal blow again?  If so, this could be an internal seal leak or excessive pump pressure.  A clogged pump return can also raise pressures in the gear and blow a seal.  

Did you replace the teflon seal(s) within the gear during your sector work?  This involves an inexpensive rebuild kit.  FYI, I quickly found Edelman and Gates rebuild kits for a 1984 Jeep J10 FSJ truck, which should be similar to your Saginaw power steering gear.  Check this out:

http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1984/jeep/j10/steering/steering_gear_rebuild_kit.html

Buying a used gear from another vehicle, especially an aged truck, is a gamble.  Buying a rebuilt steering gear, from what I've seen in the U.S., can also be a gamble.  The degree of restoration is often questionable, and you need a responsible shop with a knowledgeable, trained labor force to perform the work.  This is a common steering gear design, so the risk of incompetent workmanship is less.  If your current gear housing and hard parts are still intact, you have a rebuildable core, a basis for doing your own rebuild.  If you need another gear for a core, that gear should also be rebuilt.  "Good used" might apply for some parts but not for a 1980s era steering gear. 

I've glanced at Saginaw steering gear rebuild videos at YouTube (i.e., "free").  The information I've seen is either vague or incomplete.  Several videos looked like first-time rebuild attempts and left out key steps.  Rebuilding a steering gear involves safety concerns, and setting up the gear properly can assure a long service life.  I have the material to put a Vimeo On Demand streaming rental video together.  Would such a detailed how-to video on rebuilding your Saginaw gear be of value?  Would you pay a rental fee of, say, $4.99 (U.S.) for detailed step-by-step information?  I would set the video up as a 30-day rental period, available for streaming as many times as needed within that 30-day period.  I'm game if there's enough demand for this particular technical information and how-to.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses ive had it in & running for a week now & its going well improved power maybe not as much as i expected but i think the 4.2 head would be the restriction so thats ok ,fuel economy has improved & its much more driver friendly with the motorcraft carby on

it still has great low down tourque caractoristics like the 4.2 but doesnt get up & go like the 4.0 im asuming that this is due to head choice but its a work horse not a race horse so im quite happy

cheers  ian

Edited December 19, 2015 by ian cj10

[Moses Ludel]

Hi, Ian...Congrats on the engine build!  The Jeep CJ10's weight comes into play here...What was the application for the Motorcraft carburetor?  An AMC/Jeep 360 V-8 or at least a 304 V-8?  Ford 302 V-8?  Does the carburetor run smoothly to 4,500 rpm?  That's a legitimate ceiling for practical purposes on this engine.  You should be making 230-240 horsepower with your stroker build.

Inline six rule-of-thumb for CFM flow, direct quote from the late Jack Clifford:  1 CFM for each cubic inch of displacement to reach 4,000 rpm.  Want to spin faster?  Must increase the CFM flow.  For your stroker, a 350 CFM carburetor would be plenty.

Moses 

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses 

im not sure of the carbs original application but it is very smooth & seems to rev well enough ive not pushed it too hard maybe to 4000rpm or so

i did try a 350 holley on it also & found it made a lot more power but its a worn out piece of junk & was undrivable at low rpm so no good in town or in the tracks

its not making that much horsepower but has a lot of tourque so it works well if i feel i need more ill have to buy a new 350 holley i guess

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Ian, I'd stick with a Motorcraft.  AMC/Jeep used these on the 360 V-8 and 304 V-8.  I like them, very simple to keep in tune and far less touchy than a Holley.  

Holley is altitude sensitive and cannot tolerate backfiring without a loss of the power valve.  The "universal" 350 CFM Holley was problematic to tune on inline sixes, I know from experience, including access to a borrowed $10,000 Horiba real time exhaust system monitor (O2) back in the early 1990s.  There was no perfect tune spot for the Holley on a stock 4.2L six, and any change in altitude of more than 1000 feet threw the A/F ratio off dramatically...I like the idea of a stock, blueprint rebuild on a Motorcraft 2100 or 2150.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

yes i expect i will stick with the motorcraft carb as ive never had a holley that is this smooth to drive & the power sacrifice is no big deal it goes well enough for me

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

You'll find this works well...Cheer at the Holidays, Ian!

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

hope you enjoyed your holiday season i had lots of rellies visiting so it was full on but great

the cj10 is going great not a single problem steering box is not leaking & the 4.6 is running sweet

i just bought a jk wrangler with the jk8 pick up mod will pick it up later this week & post pics in jk section

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Planning to keep the CJ10, Ian?  The Jeep JK Wrangler will be a departure from the traditional ladder frame with leaf springs.  You'll discover the difference.  The JK8 pickup mod does open the prospect of "replacing the J10", though you've put a lot of energy and work into the rare CJ10 and will likely keep it!

Moses 

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses 

yep shes a keeper for sure i just love it i just wanted a fuel efficient diesel

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

due to damage done before i bought the cj10 by a dodgey starter motor the ring gear finally gave up so when i pulled the engine i decided to put the 4.2 back in mainly due to the terrible fuel consumption of the 4.6 & i got sick of listening to the electric fuel pump now i have the fsj as a toy this is primarily a work ute so reliabity & driveability are more important than the extra power which isnt that noticable anyway & the 4.2 has a smoother idle as think the 4.6 has the 4.0 cam also replaced the clutch master cylinder & repairing the leaky heater core

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Ian...Keep us posted on the results with this Motorcraft carburetor and stroker.

So it's springtime for you folks...Planning any trips?  Fishing expeditions?

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

the motorcraft carby is working well & fuel economy is much better now the 4.2 is back in

yes its supposed to be spring here but someone forgot to tell winter its over

yes i have a trip planned but ill be flying im going to queensland for 10 days to visit my brother he's got quite a few ineresting things planned including a few days 4wheel driving on fraser island & a trip up to cairns should be great fun would have loved to do it in my own vehicle but its on the opposite side of the country i think he's got some fishing planned as well his brother inlaw has a 53' riviera i think were going to head out on that for day trip cant wait i'm flying out on friday the 14th

cheers  ian

[Moses Ludel]

Ian...Very good pick if the right CFM flow.  If off a 302/5.0L V-8, this would likely be right for a 4.6L stroker.  

Did he furnish an adapter to the BBD manifold?  Are you using a Clifford or Offenhauser intake manifold for ram flow?  The Motorcraft 2100 (presumed series) should have the same base pattern as the common Holley 2300 2-barrel.

Moses

[ian cj10]

Hi Moses

the motorcraft carby is working well & fuel economy is much better now the 4.2 is back in

yes its supposed to be spring here but someone forgot to tell winter its over

yes i have a trip planned but ill be flying im going to queensland for 10 days to visit my brother he's got quite a few ineresting things planned including a few days 4wheel driving on fraser island & a trip up to cairns should be great fun would have loved to do it in my own vehicle but its on the opposite side of the country i think he's got some fishing planned as well his brother inlaw has a 53' riviera i think were going to head out on that for day trip cant wait i'm flying out on friday the 14th

cheers  ian

[ian cj10]

i should treat the old girl a bit better but it is a work ute after all

id like to see a modern ute do this thats 2200kg on its back & it took it in its stride i used to have a 75 series land cruiser & it wouldnt of had a hope in sitting that level its tow bar would have nearly been touching the ground had i tried this with it

cheers ian

[Moses Ludel]

Wow, Ian, we get the visual!  That's a load...How big are the frame modular sections on the CJ-10?  This capacity is way beyond the typical CJ-7 of that era. 

Many CJ-7s and CJ-8s handle loads beyond their GVW.  Boxed frames from 1976-up made a huge difference in strength.  By the '80s these frames were even stronger, enough to handle stiff lift kit springs and retrofit large axles. 

Your CJ-10 truck looks like a factory effort to handle a load...How does the frame compare with a J-10 pickup or your Wagoneer?  Or is it more like a CJ-7/CJ-8 Scrambler?

Moses