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Jeep KJ Liberty Recall N46—a Trailer Hitch is the Fix!

Jeep KJ Liberty Jeep Liberty Jeep discussion Jeep forum

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193 replies to this topic

#1 belvedere

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:41 AM

We recently received a recall notice for my wife's '06 Libby.  The problem is that the fuel tank could leak during a rear-end collision (ya think?!), and the fix is to install a trailer hitch.  I thought that was an interesting fix, but I sure won't complain about a free OEM hitch!  It also noted that parts are not currently available, but that we'll receive another notice when they are.  Can you imagine how many hitches Chrysler will need for all the '02-'07 KJs on the road??



#2 Moses Ludel

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 07:33 AM

Well, Belvedere, you are among the 1,560,000 owners who could be eligible for a free hitch! Here's the NHTSA statement about the issue and repair: http://www-odi.nhtsa...a_ids=13V252000.

You'll like the Mopar hitch, these parts fit well and enhance the appearance and function of your vehicle. They add value, too!

Moses

#3 biggman100

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 10:18 AM

This recall also covers the 1993 to 2004 Grand Cherokee as well as the Liberty. My mother in law just got the letter on her 02 Grand Cherokee.



#4 JanetBrown

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 02:48 PM

Hi, I have just received a recall notice fN46 for my Jeep KJ (Cherokee in the UK) - whilst your headline is that a Trailer Hitch is the fix, I have been advised by the stealership that if it is necessary to remove my trailer hitch to install a cross beam to repair the problem then they will NOT replace my trailer hitch afterwards and that I will have to pay to have it replaced. Yet in the USA a trailer hitch will be supplied and fitted for free.
 
How is this right?????

#5 Moses Ludel

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 04:03 PM

Hello, Janet...Welcome to the forums! Have you shared the U.S. recall information with the dealership? (See the link in the earlier discussion.)

 

In the U.S., the dealer network has a Chrysler/Mopar representative (zone manager) who visits the dealerships on a regular basis. You can ask your dealer to set up a meeting with the Chrysler representative for his/her next visit to the dealership.  Or you may be able to contact the zone rep directly.

If your vehicle already has the appropriate Mopar hitch in place and installed properly, the U.S. safety recall suggests that this reinforcement is sufficient to remedy the problem and risks. If you have a hitch in place that is not the equivalent of the Mopar replacement hitch, in the U.S., the dealer would likely just replace your existing hitch with the Mopar replacement parts—free of charge.

There is no mention of a U.S. cross beam repair. By U.S. standards and the Chrysler agreement with NHTSA, the hitch described will serve the same purpose as the cross beam your dealer describes.

Unless your UK automotive safety bureau has altered the requirement for fixing this problem, the Chrysler/Jeep zone or regional service/parts manager should be able to discuss this issue and offer a reasonable solution at no charge.  The only exception that I can imagine would be a modification to your KJ Liberty/Cherokee during your original hitch installation that prevents the Mopar hitch from fitting safely or resolving the safety risk stated in the recall.  Even then, as a consumer with a recall notice, you could still discuss this with the Chrysler/Jeep regional parts and service manager and negotiate a reasonable solution. 

 

Let us know how this turns out, Janet...

Moses



#6 JanetBrown

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 06:31 AM

Hi Moses, yep I have shared the US information with the dealership. Their answer was that if my vehicle needed the repair then they would remove my towhitch and replace it with a crossbeam. I would then NOT be able to have my towhitch replaced EVER or have any other towhitch fitted EVER. (My towhitch was fitted at point of purchase and is a WITTER towhitch - from my investigation this is the same as the MOPAR one - it fits around the fuel tank)This would obviously render this particular vehicle  unfit for purpose as I would not be able to tow - the reason why I bought this particular vehicle in the first place - to tow a horsebox!  However they then went on to say that IF my vehicle did require the repair I could sign a waiver form that would state that I did not want the repair carried out thereby keeping my tow hitch.  My comment was then that they were in effect suggesting that I drive around in a possibly unsafe car. How would this affect my insurance and any possible legal action in the event of an accident.  

 

So my next cause of action was to email the Chairman of Jeep UK (Fiat) Steve Zanlunghi  on Thursday evening laying out my concerns and asking for his comment.  I had a reply within 15 minutes of the opening of business on Friday. He informed me that he had passed my concerns to the Customer Service Department, who emailed me within two hours requesting further information on my vehicle and further contact details for me.  

 

Obviously this scenario may not occur if my vehicle is not deemed as needing the repair, but I am concerned that some people in this country would feel pressured into signing the waiver to enable themselves to keep the towhitch and not consider the possible consequences.

 

I await the response from customer services !!!!!



#7 Moses Ludel

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 01:08 PM

From what you share, Janet, the Witter hitch either meets the NHTSA standard or it could be simply replaced with the Mopar hitch that does meet the safety recall standard.  This is not complicated.  I would think that Chrysler sees it that way, too.

 

Curious how this turns out.  You may wind up with a new Mopar hitch in place of your existing hitch, especially if they are identical and the official Mopar hitch meets the NHTSA or UK recall standard.  Assuming that your existing Witter hitch was installed without unusual modifications, or at least in the same manner and detail as the Mopar hitch, you should have a simple remedy.

 

Moses



#8 DavidLambourne

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 09:43 AM

Hi Janet.

Also in the UK, we had our 2005 Jeep Cherokee booked in for the N46 recall this next Thursday, but were concerned about the dealership’s comments on signing a “disclaimer”. Hence my searching the internet, seeing your comments and joining this forum.

We purchased our Cherokee 4 years ago and have the previous owner’s service bills showing that the tow bar was fitted when the vehicle was 9 months old, (8,500 miles) by a Jeep main dealer at a cost of £547. (The Jeep is now 9 years old, 90,000.)

So the situation we have now is that unless the dealership on Thursday “passes the tow bar as acceptable” we either sign a disclaimer, with all the legal & insurance implications or we possess a Jeep with no tow bar.

We also bought our Jeep for towing a trailer.

We have decided to cancel our N46 appointment on Thursday and would be interested to hear about your responses from Jeep’s customer services.

I do appreciate that you have put a lot of work into pursuing Jeep UK (Fiat) so far.



#9 JanetBrown

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:13 AM

Hi again, well the Jeep went into the stealership on Monday for the visual inspection (I had also requested a diagnostic check due to two error messages). The following has now occured:

1. Visual inspection carried out and car deemed as not requiring repair or fix

2. Intermediate service carried out (after they agreed to meet the price charged by my local mechanic) so that I would only be without my car for one dy rather than two

3. Diagnostic check proved to be 'inconclusive', their expensive diagnostic machine does not show the same codes that I get when rotating the ignition key, they are asking for technical advice from elsewhere!!

4. Several other 'faults' found on my vehicle, including some dealt with under warranty elsewhere.

 

So the upshot is that I sit here on Wednesday morning, still without my car, still not knowing about the diagnostic check and still unsure as to the cost of all this - I was quoted £120 ph for the diagnostic check, the service is an agreed price and the recall visual inspection is free.  I am also concerned at the 'new faults' that they have allegedly found. I have contacted the garage that carried out the work under warranty, they are also concerned and I have arranged to take the car to them upon its return to me for their opinion.   I really didn't want to take my car into the stealership, as I was concerned this would happen, given that this happened at a previous recall.  When all is done I will be updating Customer Services and Steve Zanlunghi with my thoughts and concerns.  I will let you now the outcome.



#10 JanetBrown

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:21 AM

Hi Janet.

Also in the UK, we had our 2005 Jeep Cherokee booked in for the N46 recall this next Thursday, but were concerned about the dealership’s comments on signing a “disclaimer”. Hence my searching the internet, seeing your comments and joining this forum.

We purchased our Cherokee 4 years ago and have the previous owner’s service bills showing that the tow bar was fitted when the vehicle was 9 months old, (8,500 miles) by a Jeep main dealer at a cost of £547. (The Jeep is now 9 years old, 90,000.)

So the situation we have now is that unless the dealership on Thursday “passes the tow bar as acceptable” we either sign a disclaimer, with all the legal & insurance implications or we possess a Jeep with no tow bar.

We also bought our Jeep for towing a trailer.

We have decided to cancel our N46 appointment on Thursday and would be interested to hear about your responses from Jeep’s customer services.

I do appreciate that you have put a lot of work into pursuing Jeep UK (Fiat) so far.

 

 

OK from what I understood from my time at the stealership my current towbar was acceptable - it is a Witter one that was fitted at first registration by the Jeep dealer - for want of a better term it seems to protect the fuel tank as it sort of 'wraps the exposed area of the tank at the back - around it like a letter C - from my research as long as it is more than 40  or 44cm from the tank to the towbar, has no sharp edges and is not misshapen or damaged in any way you should be fine.  IMHO I would absolutely not consider signing the waiver, it may lead anyone to be open to all sorts of legal/insurance problems. I have yet to hear of anyone having the crossbeam fitted, but the recall notices have only been sent out recently in the UK whereas in the USA they have know about this for a couple of years.  Whereabouts are you based and which stealership are you taking your car to??



#11 DavidLambourne

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 01:56 AM

Hi Janet,

We are based in the Welsh Borders and are taking the car to T J Vickers in Shrewsbury.

 

I'll have a look under the Jeep & measure up. Thanks for the info.

 

Pleased your towbar was OK. Hope you get your car back soon.



#12 JanetBrown

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 04:58 AM

OK so sh*t has just hit the fan - phone call from mechanic to 'update' me - their diagnostic machine is still not giving the information they need and unlike the response yesterday it appears that today my car DOES need the crossbeam - I am absolutely furious and am still waiting three days into a 1 day booking to find out what is going to happen.



#13 DavidLambourne

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 07:01 AM

Hi Janet,

 

Sorry to hear that.

 

I'm just pleased that I have cancelled my Thursday  "inspection" at the dealership.



#14 Yabrinya

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:38 AM

Well - before we all get excited about a free trailer hitch...
I had my 2004 Jeep Liberty in for service yesterday and also asked the dealer to perform recall N46.  When I picked up my Jeep, I was told by the Service Consultant - the trailer hitch is not actaully to be used for towing, only for structural reinforcement and safety - HUH? 
Why install a trailer hitch that cannot be used for towing?
So for confirmation I called the Chrysler Group Recall Assistance Center phone # on the mailer and was told the exact same thing.  There is no wiring harness attached to the hitch since it is not intended to be used for towing.  If I choose to install the wiring harness and tow, that is on me. 
I have to wonder...if I sell this Jeep - how will the next owner know that the trailer hitch is only for decoration?

#15 carm296

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 01:34 PM

Hi,

I also cancelled my appointment today with jeep dealership after being informed that if the car cross-beam is fitted on this recall, then i cannot have a tow bar fitted! How can they do this??  I bought this car as I have just set up a furniture business and without a tow bar, the car is useless to me. Jeep customer relations UK are one of the worst I have ever experienced. I even asked them to fit the tow bar and I will pay and was told that Chrysler do not supply an aftermarket tow bar!! I have just emailed customer relations, the local dealership, Mike Manley and BBC watchdog. I will also be adding Steve Zanlunghi to this complaint. Good advice on here. Thanks.



#16 paul

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:14 AM

Hi all with ref to the kj recall i took my vehicle to the dealers on friday 30th oct and YES it failed the test regarding the towbar fitted WITTER REMOVABLE HEAD VERSION. I requested to see the problem and found the tool supplied by jeep to be a joke....it looked like a lolly pop and is inserted between the nearest point of the towbar to the fuel tank. I had the tow bar removed and they fitted another bar just like a normal towbar but without the tow ball. (I will take a picture and and post it here.)

 

Reading Janet's report to date i have had same experience with jeep customer service etc etc. I have been ringing around to see if any towbar is fit to be put on my kj jeep, to date none meet the test. I am still looking into the matter as i write this article and will be updating as i get additional useful information. Jeep to date has gone about this problem as far as i am concerned in a totally unprofessonal manner and are treating their customers very badly indeed. My jeep has only done 40,000 miles and was bought for towing my caravan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#17 furrytyke

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 10:56 AM

Hello all. I am new to this site, but feel compelled to add my feelings regarding the N46 recall.
 
A little potted history first. In September 2013, I purchased a 2004 Jeep Cherokee to tow my caravan and transport my dog. On Saturday 16th August 2014, I had an aftermarket type approved towbar fitted (cost £280), to the existing mounting points without any modifications. Then on Friday 10th October 2014, I arrived home from work to find a letter regarding a safety recall on my vehicle. I contacted my local Jeep dealer, Pentagon in Barnsley and arranged for the inspection to be carried out.
 
On Friday, 31st October 2014, this inspection was carried out. The result was that my vehicle required the existing towbar to be removed (with the electrics being left in situ and securely fastened under the vehicle), and the 'cross member' fitted as stated in the recall notification. During a conversation with the dealer, I was informed that my existing towbar could not be refitted. However, Jeep could supply a new towbar at a cost of £1600. Yes you read that correctly. I was also offered the opportunity to sign a waiver against having this work carried out.
 
Having voiced my disgust at the matter, I agreed to let the fitting of the 'cross member' go ahead. My reason for this is, being a professional driver I understand the requirement for safety on the road. However, I did inform the dealership that the concerns raised would be taken further. On completion of this conversation, I took the following steps:
 
Contacting:
 
1. Citizens Advice. No definitive action, but some guidance as to which agencies may help.
2. My present car insurance company regarding the legalities of the waiver. I received a call back from them on Tuesday 4th November 2014. They were quite clear in the fact that should I sign the waiver offered by the dealer then they would withdraw the offer of insurance renewal which is due on 10th November 2014.
3. A free legal advice line. Although this was not their field they said they would forward some information. I am still waiting.
4. Jeep Customer Services in Slough. The lady I spoke to said, 'they had no information regarding towbars and that as Jeep in UK was part of Jeep Europe, any corrections or fittings done by Jeep America have no bearing what happens over here. Further, my feelings would be noted'.
 
Yesterday, I received a telephone call from the dealership to inform me that the 'cross member' for the modification had arrived and the work would be carried out on Thursday 13th November 2014. Today, I have been to the dealer to see this wonder part. Low and behold, a towbar mounting without the facility for a hitch.

 

I am gob-smacked at this and would welcome any advice from others with the same issues.



#18 furrytyke

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 11:00 AM

here is a picture of the so called cross member

Attached Files



#19 furrytyke

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 11:10 AM

More info that may help. 

 

Having been to the dealership, I visited a local independent towbar specialist. I explained the issue to him. Until I spoke to him, he was unaware of the issues surrounding the Jeep. One good piece of advice he did give was to contact VOSA recall department on Monday and discuss the matter with them. This i shall be doing. I will post any information I receive.



#20 Renney

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 03:22 PM

Hi all, I'm also new. Thanks for posting the picture.
It's interesting to see. Doesn't look as good for protection as some towbars.
I emailed vosa in April. Only because I had been looking on 'net for a new towbar and found references to this,at the time,just in the US.
So they said they were aware of it and would issue a recall if and when required.
Once I recently heard most towbars couldn't be used I emailed them again. They replied and said they were currently collating information about the problems and would respond in due course.
A phone call might divulge more though.
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#21 biggman100

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 02:07 PM

I did some research on this for a friend who was having issues with the dealer doing the recall, and came across some info that may explain why the european recall doesnt allow for the installation of a towbar in the recall.

 

First, i came across this, As of the 1st of August 1998 all Passenger Carrying Vehicles up to 3500 kg Gross Vehicle Weight (M1 Vehicles) can only be fitted with European Type Approved towbars if the vehicle has received European Whole Vehicle Type Approval. Non M1 vehicles, Light Commercial Vehicles and private imports from outside the EEC are not required to use Approved Towbars.

 

Then, i came across this in another article, The Liberty, Patriot, and Cherokee have never been tested, and have not received (ECWVTA) certification. This is a direct quote from the article when they discussed the Patriot, Despite being launched here in 2007, the Patriot has never been tested. The aging offering is set for replacement by a new compact SUV that will fill the role of both the Patriot and its edgier Compass sibling from 2016. Later in the article they also mention the Cherokee and Liberty as not being certified either.
 

I may be understanding this wrong, but, if i am understanding it right, because those jeep models have never received the certification, then under European law, they cant be fitted with a towbar of any kind, which is why the recall doesnt allow for it in europe.


#22 furrytyke

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:31 AM

Update!!!!!
Today I have spoken with the VOSA official who is co-ordinating the N46 recall. The towbar fitted by Jeep America does not conform to European standards and therefore cannot be fitted to UK based vehicles. Also, at present there is no towbar on the market which meets the requirements of the safety recall. Thus, you get the cross member fitment only. VOSA are in continuing discussion with Jeep trying to find solutions.

#23 Renney

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:26 AM

Thanks for the update.
Every day seems to raise new questions.
There are many sites online (and fitting stores) one could order a towbar from.
But are they even aware of this, are they selling towbars that aren't approved?
Not a question to above, just thinking out loud really.


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#24 Laney

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:49 PM

http://www-odi.nhtsa...13V252-7854.pdf
Have a look at this. Its for the US market with the hitch.
Funny at the end, got a new hitch on but yellow label says vehicle is not intended for towing.

Sorry, this about the label is wrong,see below.

#25 biggman100

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:12 PM

Unless your label is different, the label they use actually says, " Chrysler recommends you remove the ball and ball mount when your vehicle is not actually in use for towing". At least, thats what the label on a friend of mine's says, that he just had the recall done on.



#26 Laney

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 12:05 AM

Unless your label is different, the label they use actually says, " Chrysler recommends you remove the ball and ball mount when your vehicle is not actually in use for towing". At least, thats what the label on a friend of mine's says, that he just had the recall done on.


Yes, you're right. There are a couple of important words obscured in the photo ( p14 of that PDF).
Thanks.



#27 JanetBrown

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 11:58 AM

Ok a quick update - after several emails with no reply I sent the following to both Customer Relations and Steven Zanlunghi:

 

"I am disappointed that despite further emails to you I have still not received a reply.  I have also been made aware of further information which infuriates me even more: I have provided the new information I have received below:

 

"I did some research on this for a friend who was having issues with the dealer doing the recall, and came across some info that may explain why the European recall doesn't allow for the installation of a towbar in the recall.

 

First, I came across this, As of the 1st of August 1998 all Passenger Carrying Vehicles up to 3500 kg Gross Vehicle Weight (M1 Vehicles) can only be fitted with European Type Approved towbars if the vehicle has received European Whole Vehicle Type Approval. Non M1 vehicles, Light Commercial Vehicles and private imports from outside the EEC are not required to use Approved Towbars.

 

Then, i came across this in another article, The Liberty, Patriot, and Cherokee have never been tested, and have not received (ECWVTA) certification. This is a direct quote from the article when they discussed the Patriot, Despite being launched here in 2007, the Patriot has never been tested. The ageing offering is set for replacement by a new compact SUV that will fill the role of both the Patriot and its edgier Compass sibling from 2016. Later in the article they also mention the Cherokee and Liberty as not being certified either.
 

 

I may be understanding this wrong, but, if i am understanding it right, because those Jeep models have never received the certification, then under European law, they cant be fitted with a towbar of any kind, which is why the recall doesn't allow for it in Europe."

 

As this debacle is allowed to rumble on with many, many people complaining about the poor or non-existant response from Jeep Customer Services, I feel it will only be a short period of time before a class action is brought against Jeep to rectify this situation that we find ourselves in through no fault of our own.  This vehicle is advertised as having good towing abilities yet this fault will prevent us from doing just that.

 

Yet again I wait your response."

 

I have today received the following reply (BTW they have also done some checking because this time my vehicle reg is in the header - which I had not told them)

 

"Thank you for your further email addressed to Mr Steve Zanlunghi, our Managing Director. Your correspondence has been handed to me in order to ensure that it receives a prompt response.

 

I can confirm that we are currently reviewing this matter internally and I will come back to you in due course with a full response.

 

Please be assured that we are treating this matter with the utmost priority.

 

Kind Regards,"

 

 

Surprising there is no definition of 'in due course'. I won't be holding my breath :(

 

 

 

 

 

 



#28 Renney

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 03:50 PM

JanetBrown
Thanks for sharing the info.If they are reviewing it and VOSA is too,maybe they'll sort it,maybe.
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#29 paul

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 07:52 PM

hi all again well janet is slowly getting somewhere. I have been down a different path and have also spoken this week to VOSA and to TOWTRUST tow bars. The managing director of towtrust has also spoken to VOSA and has got some measurements from somewhere to enable him to look at a NEW towbar for the kj .He is fully aware of the kj owners plight to date and appears to have taken it all on board .He is going to keep me updated on the issue .He is on vacation till the 1st dec but assures me that he will on his return look at the problem with a view to possible production of a new bar. All i can say at this point is this may be a lifeline to us all and at least we have someone who is trying to help which at this point is more than jeep has. I will keep you all updated as i get additional imformation.Tonight I received a phone call from Jeep Italy asking me to take part in a customer survey, which i found to be very funny indeed. I cannot repeat what i said to them on here but i think that someone got the message there. I don`t expect them to ring again. I am now going to wait on TOW-TRUST and also keep reading here.

 

cheers, paul

 

p.s.: keep up the good work Janet!

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#30 paul

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 07:59 PM

Can we not post Mr. Steve Zanlunghi's email address on here so that we all can send him a email thus putting pressure on him to do something? The more that can be brought to bear with him i would think the better for all of the kj owners here. We all have been treated in a very unprofessonal manner, and as you read the comments are having to fight this issue on our own.

 

cheers, paul



#31 Moses Ludel

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Posted 14 November 2014 - 10:12 PM

Paul, I certainly understand the frustration expressed by each of the European and UK members who have joined these forums and posted at this topic.  I encourage this free discourse and information exchange.  These forums provide an opportunity for sharing information that in this case should lead to a sensible solution.

 

I recommend that you not post Mr. Zanlunghi's personal or corporate Email address.  Mr. Zanlunghi has a clear message from numerous consumers and an opportunity to do the right thing here.  His role is within a corporation, and the overall responsibility to meet customer needs lies with Chrysler/Jeep® and Mopar™.  Janet Brown sent Chrysler a clear message, and others have supported her position.  Chrysler has the opportunity to make remedy around your expectation that Jeep KJ models are suitable tow vehicles within their capacity and load limit.  Mr. Zanlunghi's office has committed to a response, and his office now has a mounting stack of letters from individual owners.  Chrysler, whether through Mr. Zanlunghi or other staff, has a responsibility to provide a suitable solution here.

 

Janet Brown took the high road and presented Chrysler with facts, details and an opportunity to respond.  Stick to the high road here.

 

Thanks,

 

Moses



#32 JanetBrown

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:17 AM

Moses, whilst I appreciate that you are trying to allow Jeep to rectify this situation, in reality in the UK we are being presented with two options, to have the crossbeam fitted which will mean that we will no longer be able to use our vehicles for towing, or we sign a disclaimer which will no longer allow our vehicles to be insured.  I have had conversations with many different authorities, Insurance Companies, VOSA, AA Legal Department, Jeep and my local garage.  I have also noticed that as the majority of these vehicles in the UK are diesel powered they will have a different reaction to a high speed rear impact even with an ignition source.  There are also cases where customers have been pressured into having crossbeams fitted due to emotional suggestions that they will be driving an illegal, uninsured vehicle.  With regard to Mr Zanlunghi's email address, it is freely available, no subterfuge or illegal activity was used to obtain it. It was not until I emailed him directly that Jeep started to take me seriously. Prior to that I was just 'a little old lady' who could be ignored as I didn't know what I was talking about. Many people have advised me to go to the press, tv, etc but I have allowed Jeep the opportunity to answer me first.  Platitudes of 'taking my concerns seriously' and 'in due course'  do not help. I am also concerned that they now know my vehicle registration, I have certainly not given it to them.  I will 'take the high road', but for how long with a car that I am not sure if I am insured to drive remains to be seen



#33 Moses Ludel

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 12:11 PM

Understood, Janet.  The loss of insurance and inability to drive your vehicles is a considerable concern.  This issue is compounded by the consumer/owner impression that these vehicles were capable for tow use.  Apparently, UK/VOSA has its own view of which vehicles are safe for towing. 

 

Chrysler and UK VOSA need to work out a clear and universal remedy for all KJ owners.  Optimally, for each party concerned, Chrysler will pursue these approaches: 1) getting tow status for the Jeep KJ at the UK, allowing fitment of the Mopar N46 hitch solution, or 2) devising an acceptable safety brace or device that meets the safety recall demand and will still allow for fitment of a safe tow hitch, including the Mopar N46 tow hitch assembly or the hitches that several forum members have previously purchased in the UK, or 3) get VOSA to recognize Mopar and certain aftermarket tow hitch/brace assemblies as an acceptable remedy for the N46 safety recall demand.

 

Fully agreed that in the meanwhile you all need to use your vehicles and have access to insurance.  Livelihoods, transportation needs and your investment in these vehicles are real considerations.  Thanks for taking the high ground, Janet.  See if that works in an expedient timeframe.  I'll continue to provide space for the course of action and forum post content that you deem necessary. 

 

Note:  As the administrator/moderator of these forums, I use discretion when statements become libelous or overly inflammatory.  I understand the sensitive nature of this situation and the Jeep KJ owner stakes.  The emotional charge is fully justified, and I'm a proponent of our right to free expression.  At this point, maintaining the high ground has merit.  Give Chrysler and UK VOSA an opportunity to sort out what must be a conflict between a vehicle's known capabilities (based upon recognized Jeep KJ tow capacities at the North American market under U.S. NHTSA standards) and the UK/VOSA interpretation of the N46 safety recall requirements.

 

As this N46 dilemma resolves, I look forward to ongoing Jeep KJ topic posts and replies from UK and European forum members.  Thanks for your enthusiastic participation!

 

Moses



#34 paul

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:41 PM

Hi all  With regard to Janet's concerns regarding insurance of the jeep , by having a crossbeam fitted at this point you keep the vehicle road safe which is a requirement by law in this country.Signing any wavers will make the insurance invalided not just on the vehicle but on any insured towed unit,further more there could be a case for a M.O.T failure as tow bars come into the testing if they are fitted.Due to jeep declaring a known problem and issuing a recall ,we in the UK at this point have not other course other than to have the bar removed at this point.to comply with the law All the tow bar makers and fitters I have spoken too have to date no idea of the problem .I have to admit that the issue regarding diesel jeeps has some merit but the issue is distance to tank and the possibility of puncture etc.I have had my bar removed and beam fitted ,now it is up to jeep to come up with a better solution which i at present have no faith in due to the overall response from them.I think we may have a chance with VOSA and Jeep along with the tow bar manufacturers working together to get a acceptable bar made .If this happens then i would hope that jeep would make some form of reimbursement with the regard to the tow bar etc.

On a final note  i did buy my Jeep from new in 2005 and was assured by the dealer at the time that this vehicle was able to tow  and i still have the information in the brochure at the time even showing the tow bar from them.To now say that you are not allowed to tow and not really come up with a proper solution does take some swallowing where ever you are .

 

                             .......cheers Paul.......keep up the good work Janet ........will keep reading and adding to forum .

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#35 JanetBrown

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 02:32 AM

So Paul and Moses, if I capitulate and have the crossbeam fitted thereby preventing me from towing the horsebox, what are the chances of Jeep refunding any money I have to spend hiring a vehicle to take my horse to equestrian competition, including those that are currently sponsored by Jeep in the UK???????   IMHO absolutely ZERO.  I would also be interested to know why Jeep bothered to find out my car registration number and why??

 

I have always been a fervent recommender of Jeep Cherokees in the UK Equestrian community, now I look a total idiot.  I am seriously considering moving to of all things a KIA. Oh the shame 



#36 Moses Ludel

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:43 AM

The best outcome is as I described in my last reply.  At the U.S., Chrysler/Mopar has offered a safe hitch assembly for the KJ "Liberty" and Grand Cherokee models since their release.  To simplify the N46 safety concern, Chrysler and NHTSA apparently agreed that installation of this Mopar hitch would suffice as a suitable safety barrier for protecting the fuel tank.  At North America, in particular the U.S., there was no limitation placed on the use of this Mopar hitch for towing.  (The vehicle has a stated tow capacity or trailer weight limit, and the hitch must meet or exceed that capacity.)  When fellow forum member "belvedere" initially posted this topic, the described solution made sense with regard to the U.S. market KJ Liberty models.

 

Janet later enlightened us that in the UK, a hitch-less brace was substituted for the Mopar hitch to meet the VOSA safety requirement.  Janet found her KJ suitable for toting horses as an equestrian.  Other forum members from the UK have noted using their KJ Cherokee as a tow vehicle for toting caravans and work trailers.  Replacing an existing trailer hitch with a cross brace changes the vehicle's use.

 

This raises key questions:  Please clarify for me whether towing with a KJ Cherokee prior to this recall was considered an acceptable practice at the UK.  Was the KJ marketed and sold new with the understanding that it could be used for towing?  Since UK forum members have mentioned specific brands of tow hitches available for the KJ Cherokee models, were these hitches sold and installed at the UK as a common and acceptable practice?  Did they meet a safety standard that assured owners that the KJ Cherokee is an acceptable tow vehicle?  Did the hitch installation practice meet UK VOSA standards and guidelines?  

 

Simply put, was the KJ considered a bona fide tow vehicle at the UK under VOSA standards?  Prior to the fuel tank safety recall, did the KJ Cherokee meet VOSA standards for towing the trailers that UK forum members describe?  I'm unfamiliar with UK/VOSA standards and what VOSA regards as safe practices.  I'm also unclear how these Jeep vehicles were represented by Chrysler and its dealers for purchase and use at the UK.  Forum member "Paul" shares his point of purchase experience regarding the KJ's towing ability.  Paul also mentions materials presented by the dealer at the time he purchased his Jeep new...These are the clear issues in the current dilemma.

 

From what UK forum members have shared, this sounds like a rush to judgment by Chrysler and VOSA on how to resolve a safety issue.  Both Chrysler and VOSA need to weigh the impact on Jeep KJ Cherokee owners and work out a suitable and reasonable solution. 

 

Moses



#37 JanetBrown

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:04 PM

Moses,

 

A couple of facts regarding towing in the UK

 

1.In all Jeep brochures the KJ is shown as a vehicle capable of towing up to 3300kg.

2. In one government advisory towing brochure the same model was shown towing a trailer and in a further picture a large caravan..

3. One major horsebox manufacturer also shows the Jeep Cherokee as the tow vehicle.  

4. Many towing capacity towing websites in the UK show the towing capacity for the Jeep Cherokee

 

The particular Witter towbar fitted to my car was fitted on the day of registration, therefore in use for 10 years. If a towbar is fitted to a car in the UK is is inspected during the MOT which is a legal yearly test of any vehicle over three years old.

 

Therefore historically the Jeep Cherokee has since first used in the UK been shown as being capable of being a towing vehicle.  For Jeep to now say that it should not be used for towing and that no UK vehicle should have its towbar replaced with another to solve the problem that has been found is absolutely ridiculous.

 

What would happen if it was announced in the USA that all Jeep LIbertys and Grand Cherokees could no longer be used for towing?????

 

Wd in the UK have not been given what I consider to be a sensible option of having a different/more acceptable towbar fitted. Our options are either no towbar or a vehicle that can't be insured.

 

Janet



#38 JanetBrown

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 12:34 PM

Just been to check some documentation - my  UK Registration Certificate (issued by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency - which is an executive agency for the Department of Transport) for my Jeep Cherokee has in the vehicle details the following:

 

Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer:

 

braked (kg) 3500

Unbraked (kg) 750

 

 

Therefore in my opinion this confirms that Jeep have provided the towing capabilities to the UK Department of Transport.

 

My husband's car which has no towing capability has a zero figure in these detail boxes

 

You may find this uk website handy:  http://www.uktow.com/index.asp



#39 Moses Ludel

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:13 PM

That does look like confirmation, Janet.  If so, Chrysler and UK VOSA need to work out a safety solution similar to the U.S. NHTSA agreement.  The U.S. solution is installation of a Mopar rated and functional tow hitch, which forum member "belvedere" and others have described.  The tow hitch solution is the N46 recall agreement between Chrysler and U.S. NHTSA.  The Mopar tow hitch solution for the UK should be rated to comply with the Jeep KJ tow capacity as recommended by Chrysler.

 

If non-towing KJ owners want to opt for the cross brace installation instead of the tow hitch (i.e., they don't want a tow hitch for some reason), that could be part of the UK agreement.  Owners who do want a tow hitch could have the Mopar tow hitch installed to comply with the safety recall and use their vehicle for towing if desired.  Upon resale of the vehicle, if the KJ has a cross-brace in place and the new owner wants the approved Mopar tow hitch, the tow hitch could be retrofitted (at the new owner's expense) and meet the safety requirement.

 

Moses


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#40 JanetBrown

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 02:51 PM

Moses, I agree that would be the perfect solution, Jeep owners would be happy and UK VOSA would also be content.

 

Interestingly on another forum someone has commented that their local Jeep garage has said that they are only interested in cars which do NOT have a towbar fitted.

 

I have also been sent a Reuters news report dated 15th November in which the following is said

 

"A Fiat Chrysler spokesman reiterated the company’s position that the Jeeps are safe and not defective"

 

I consider this an odd comment considering how many cars they have recalled



#41 Renney

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 03:30 PM

I was just reading that Reuters article and Googled the CEO and found this bit from back when the take over occured.
"Consumer groups and individuals with product-related lawsuits also contested a condition of the Chrysler sale that would release the company from product liability claims related to vehicles it sold before the asset sale to Fiat. Compensation for such claims would have to come from the parts of the company not being sold to Fiat. But those assets have limited value and it's unlikely there will be anything to pay out".
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#42 biggman100

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 04:52 PM

Janet, a bit of clarification on Chrysler considering their Jeep vehicles safe. Chrysler corporation, whether before or after their partnership with Fiat, or any other affilliates, was under pressure from the NHTSA in the U.S., due to some consumer complaints after a few severe rear end collisions to come up with a viable solution, without actually admitting to any fault. In the process of finding a viable U.S. solution, it was also determined that Jeeps in other countries had the same defect, so, Chrysler decided to, as one of there own press releases here said, "take the high road and remedy the situation, irregardless of any fault of thiers". That is how they can still say Jeeps are safe and reliable, because no one pressured them to admit to any fault. It was also stated that they voluntarily ordered the recall, even though the NHTSA stated things a bit differently. I'm not trying to add to anyone's frustration, I just happened to see that press release, and the NHTSA release, and thought someone might find something useful in it.

#43 Moses Ludel

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:41 PM

Janet, if logic prevails, the properly rated Mopar tow hitch and the cross-brace should each be considered solutions for the safety concern.  You found clear statements/documents that your KJ Cherokee is suitable for towing under UK standards.  If Chrysler and VOSA simply work with the existing facts and the precedent set by the NHTSA/Chrysler agreement at the U.S., there could be a quick and sensible resolution. 

 

Moses



#44 paul

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:11 PM

hi all

answering moses question regarding uk sales,I can only inform moses that at time of purchase new 2005 my jeep was fitted with a witter tow bar by the dealer.I have been towing caravans for nearley 40 yrs and during this time since purchase have towed my caravans with no problem.All uk made towbar have to meet VOSA safety requirements and it costs in excess of £4000 to have the tests done.As i have said in my previous posts all towbars at present in the uk are rendered useless because of this distance to tank measurement which is conducted using what describe as a lolly pop.

When i spoke to the main dealer manager where mine was done he did say that jeep were not going to say that UK after market tow bars were not fit for job as this would lead to all sorts of additional problems.Like Janet i have looked at purchasing a KIA and also like Janet have pushed jeep brand where ever i have been so that makes two fools at least out here.Jeep has always been sold in this country as a towing unit and that's why people like me and Janet bought the vehicle.I have also said in recent posts that the only person to show any interset in this problem is TOM at Tow trust tow bars who is in contact with VOSA regarding the issue.I still have my tow bar but as said before the Law comes into this now if you have been issued with a recall we are required to ensure our vehicle is safe to go on the roads (read my previous post).

I also agree that because Fiat has bought into Jeep that any problems before their time are not really their concern from a legal point.I also have read forums and news items regarding how jeep was forced to call back kj in the states which for me does not give much credit to jeep, but at least they have bowed to pressure and made a move maybe not the right one at present for all kj owners.A final comment if you decide to sell what is it going to be worth (not a lot) where do you stand in law if..  1) you have signed a wavier .. 2) you have not taken the car in for check (but you know about problem)WOULD YOU BUY A VEHICLE LIKE THE JEEP THAT CANNOT TOW? Jeep is now  aware of this here in the UK and needs to step up to the mark and quick because i am sure the vehicle trade will if not already have got wind of this.     Keep at Janet as i will ...keep reading ...cheers Paul

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#45 Moses Ludel

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 02:06 PM

Paul, following the logic and even the consumer or legal issues involved here (i.e., the Jeep KJ being capable of towing as consumers would expect and the vehicle maintaining its "normal" resale value), the simplest solution for Chrysler is to assure that the same measure used in the U.S. is acceptable to UK VOSA.  At the U.S., the Mopar tow hitch furnished and installed under the N46 recall apparently complies with the U.S./NHTSA agreement.  Acceptable distance between the tow bar and the fuel tank must be part of that Chrysler/U.S. NHTSA N46 agreement.

 

A similar agreement between Chrysler and UK VOSA would make that same tow hitch an acceptable solution for the current UK safety recall.  Since Chrysler has designed and supplied the special non-towing cross brace for UK VOSA safety recall requirements, that device could be an option for owners who currently do not want a tow hitch installed on their Jeep KJ models.

 

Those with the Witter or other tested and approved UK aftermarket hitches could also be considered here.  If you want to keep your Witter or other aftermarket hitches, and if they meet the safety standards and fit dimensionally like the Mopar tow hitch, then that could be an option.  If the Witter or other aftermarket hitches do not fit or match the build of the Mopar tow hitch, those who currently tow could at least get their Witter or other UK aftermarket hitch replaced for free with the accepted Mopar tow hitch described under the Chrysler/U.S. NHTSA N46 solution.

 

Considering the facts shared by UK members at this forum topic, this is not a complicated situation.  Am I missing something here?  The only thing that needs to happen is for Chrysler and UK VOSA to agree that the U.S. NHTSA N46 solution is acceptable.

 

Moses



#46 paul

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:28 AM

hi all

I agree with the comments regarding the acceptance of the MOPAR by VOSA would be a ideal way out and again if jeep would supply and fit a MOPAR towbar free to all of us affected by the recall (more so the ones who have a towbar fitted or removed ).I think the cost to jeep would be more than they would be willing to accept as we are talking big numbers here alone in the uk and this is a world wide issue.The Witter bar does not meet the new measurements (1/4 OF INCH TO CLOSE) at present and thus all other bars as far as i have seen fail this test..i am hoping a tow bar maker will come up with the answer and thus keep the vehicle legal here in the uk .I have at present not a lot of faith in jeep to get this sorted other than what they have done to date, for a company as big as them they appear to me to be dragging there feet whilst the owners of the kj are left wanting to say the least.We all have to wait and hope they will do something.In the mean time i am running about WITHOUT a towbar and legal and if this matter is not resolved in time for me to start retowing my caravan i am afraid the JEEP will go ...........keep up the good work ........all of you  .......cheers paul.................

 

PS GREAT FORUM MOSES

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#47 Moses Ludel

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 05:48 AM

Thanks for the compliment on the forums, Paul.  I've aimed at creating an atmosphere where members and guests can get useful, comprehensive technical information and also share their enthusiasm for four-wheel drive vehicles, SUVs, powersports machines and OHVs.  Optimally, the forums' value to members and guests is cost-effective vehicle maintenance and repair solutions, selecting sensible accessories and upgrades, and an opportunity to enthusiastically share our motorized lifestyles, recreational interests and pursuits. 

 

When UK members are past this Jeep KJ safety recall dilemma, I'm trusting you will each continue to contribute at the forums.  It would be exciting to hear more about your specialty uses for the Jeep KJ and how it suits your lifestyle interests—like pulling horse trailers and recreational caravanning.  As a community, we can discuss and share ways to enhance our four-wheel drive and SUV experiences! 

 

As for Chrysler balking on the tow bar solution due to the broad numbers of vehicles involved in this safety issue, that should not be an obstacle.  The corporation has already committed to the U.S. tow bar installation, and for the UK, there is very little cost difference between the tow bar and the cross brace that is currently presented.  At the manufacturing level, if Chrysler is obligated to install one device or the other, the option or alternative of a tow hitch is of small consequence, especially considering the consumer satisfaction factor.  Granted, this is a wide scale and costly solution overall, and we can be certain that any delay by Chrysler includes weighing ways to contain cost.

 

Moses



#48 Laney

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:03 AM

Hi,I was just reading on another forum (jeep club) and there is a mechanic at a dealership that has been able to slacken the fuel tank straps, move the tank and get the gap large enough to pass.
So that sounds promising. Provided there is sufficient movement in filler pipe and fuel lines etc.
So in some instances depending on the amount of movement available this seems like a solution.

#49 paul

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 11:33 PM

hi all ...Reading the post of the tank being moved forward by the mechanic makes you think anyway. When you also consider that 1/4 of a inch was a fail it makes you wonder (witter towbar) i spoke to a mot tester today (36 yrs. in the business) his comment was....why not a protective plate around the tank area (skid plate)? I will be taking my jeep in for mot on monday and will have a look when it is up on the ramp again and take some pics of the new bar fitted via jeep.

 

Moses, I will be posting on here after the towbar issue has been sorted (I hope). You can pick up tips etc from other members and hopefully enjoy your jeep once again ......cheers all .......keep the posts coming on the towbar issue ......

 


hi all ...Reading the post of the tank being moved forward by the mechanic makes you think anyway. When you also consider that 1/4 of a inch was a fail it makes you wonder (witter towbar) i spoke to a mot tester today (36 yrs. in the business) his comment was....why not a protective plate around the tank area (skid plate)? I will be taking my jeep in for mot on monday and will have a look when it is up on the ramp again and take some pics of the new bar fitted via jeep.

 

Moses, I will be posting on here after the towbar issue has been sorted (I hope). You can pick up tips etc from other members and hopefully enjoy your jeep once again ......cheers all .......keep the posts coming on the towbar issue ......

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#50 rose1081

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:59 AM

Just joined to follow this discussing. I'm also looking at custom towbars as none of the standard ones available pass the regulations.

#51 JanetBrown

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:38 PM

Just to let you know that I have heard on another forum that here in the UK some insurers are refusing to insure cars that either have not been taken in for the fix or have signed the waiver.  I would have hoped that a little commonsense would have been applied until such time as Jeep have made a final decision on the fix.



#52 furrytyke

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 11:51 PM

Hello people.
Here is something to ponder..................................
"My towbar has been removed from my KJ and the cross member as shown in a photo in one of my previous posts has been fitted. Now, I cannot tow my caravan. However, on the cross member there is an attachment loop for recovery purposes. So, if this cross member can be used for one method of towing, WHY wasn't it designed for the other method of towing. INTERESTING?????"

#53 paul

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 01:32 AM

Hi  all I have not received a email from a towbar fitting supplier who confirmed what i have said in my previous posts that there is at present no towbar that will fit the kj jeep under the new jeep test requirements. The bar fitted does have a tow hook attachment, but the bar is only for a protection and stiffening brace in the event of a rear end impact.I agree they could of made the assembly a proper tow bar, but costs come into all this at the end of the day and to date they have met the requirements to ensure a safe vehicle.The insurance companies are going to cover themselves in any event and as i have reported earlier we all really need a NEW TOWBAR which meets with VOSTA approval etc.Having got one in that does then hopefully try and get some compensation out of jeep to get it fitted etc...keep the comments coming ...we need to stay at it.......

 

one final comment jeep yet again rang me here and again asked what i though of the sevice i had recieved to date........NO COMMENT.....

 

 

 

     CHEERS PAUL.........

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#54 rose1081

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 12:30 AM

Hi janet! Which forum was it where those not having the recall done were refused insurance? I understand if you sign the waiver but then that's on you I guess.

#55 furrytyke

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 01:34 AM

Hi rose1081. I don't know about forums regarding the validity of insurance when signing the waiver, but I can tell you this for definate. When I was told my KJ had failed the inspection on 31/10/14 and needed a cross member or sign the waiver, I immediately contacted my insurance company AXA for advice. The lady i spoke to took all my details about the issue and passed it to their policy underwriters. A few days after this call, I received a call back from AXA. Their stance was this, "if I did not have the work carried out as deemed necessary in accordance with the safety recall then my offer of renewal of insurance due 10/11/14 would be withdrawn and no new offer would be made". I think that clearly tells us the position of insurance companies regarding the N46 recall. Cheers Furrytyke

#56 rose1081

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 03:16 AM

I'm going to attempt to call jeep customer service again today. Not sure where it will get me.

Also contacted citizens advice who sent me a nice long email plus this link about the sale of goods act:

http://www.advicegui...aulty_goods.htm



#57 Renney

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 02:39 PM

On another forum,a member has been looking at changing their Jeep. Traders weren't interested in it as a park ex. They're not worth anything as a part ex,they can't shift them on afterwards. Bad news for those wanting to change to another vehicle to tow with.


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#58 JanetBrown

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:06 AM

So this morning I have had a letter which 'strongly recommends that I have the crossbeam fitted' and that they are reviewing my comments regarding the towbar.

 

IMHO this translates as F.O and do as you are told. I now also believe that Fiat/Chrysler have absolutely no intention of dealing with the towbar issue in the UK

 

One extremely unhappy soon to be not a Jeep Owner - the value of Jeep Cherokees has crashed in the UK - it looks as if no-one will take them as part exchange for another vehicle. Prior to this, four weeks ago  my car was valued at £4,000 - now - ?????



#59 JanetBrown

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:12 AM

rosie1081 - H&H of course :)    I wonder if Jeep will have the balls to sponsor any more equestrian events. 



#60 paul

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 10:38 PM

hi all  well i recieved a reply to my email to Mr Steve Zanlunghi and the responseis they are looking into the issue at present.I will be emailing him again with additional questions and points regarding this recall .I had already accepted the fact that once this filtered into the trade nobody would wnat to bo buy the vehicle and that insurance companies would start to ask questions.I still go with the path of a new type of towbar being the answer and i will keep on down this path for the present.Chrysler to date as said before are dragging there feet but i again believe that its cost based in general.will keep you posted on any news from anywahere as i get it ....keep the comments coming .....don`t give up just yet Janet......

 

 

ps chrysler /fiat should remember .........We don`t have to buy metal ,but they have to sell to survive............You look after today for tomorrow.

 

 

 

   cheers all paul

Attached Files



#61 rose1081

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 08:30 AM

Ah so you are the janet from CTR? :)

Thats not great if the letter is "strongly suggesting". I think they are hoping we all go away. Because honestly with where my towbar attaches I'm not sure they could fit one with enough clearance. :(
I'm not hopeful of a resolution.

I'm going to put my appointment in for January. As I appreciate I need to do something and can't just ignore the recall. It's so frustrating.

#62 TonyF

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:09 AM

My Mum has a 2006 cherokee which she purchased on my recommendation for towing her horse box. It is in today and the tow bar fails the test - they are fitting the cross member and putting the now worthless tow bar in the boot. It is disgusting that JEEP UK couldn't come up with an alternative tow solution - they claim the US solution doesn't meet the UK specs (could be hitch height etc.) I know trailers from the USA cannot be used here either without adaptation. 

 

Whilst this jeep was purchased from outside the network we were generally pleased with it and I was considering a new jeep (a LWB Wrangler - ironically I didn't buy it because of the low tow weight ability - why is it so poor?), Certainly would need some convincing now and I imagine it will also be a massive PR disaster when the news of this spreads. Low resale values are not going to help them sell new cars.

 

The dealer said they cannot offer a replacement that fits but offered a contact locally who managed to get a bar that does meet the spec for a similarly affected Grand Cherokee.

Not contacted Jeep yet, but intend to email later today - don't suppose it will do much good.

 

Resolving it properly would have generated untold goodwill, or at minimum working with an after market manufacturer to be able to offer a solution at subsidised or trade cost.



#63 wilbo85

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:50 AM

Ok I am new to this forum and have been watching and reading up on comments as I also am from the UK and have a Jeep kj.

 

I took it in a few weeks ago to get tested for the N46 recall. I was informed over the phone that with my westfallia tow hitch it failed. I told them to hold off on doing any work untill I had made a few phone calls. as with everyone else it seems I logged my complaint with Jeep UK and searched the internet for a solution.

 

Jeep UK comfirmed to me that some Jeeps with tow bars had passed but they had no record of what ones they were. I relayed this to the dealership and spent about half an hour talking to them and came up with a compromise of a 2 week window where they would hold off on filing their findings while I found a tow bar that fitted. They also helped in giving me a print out of the points they measure and the measurments. It is the 42mm in the middle but also 1inch and a half at the ends (38mm i think). I will attach a colour copy I found on the net so you can see for yourself (Page 6 on the pdf)

 

I researched the forums for bars that had the most clearence and found the Mopar and Brink tow bars were best (They are actually both made by Brink which from what I hear is now part of Thurl).

 

Hopefully you will be able to see from the photos attached the difference. I had to get an engineer to do the work to cut the back of the hitch flat and weld a plate accross for added strength (He said if was completly over engineered but would tidy it up and give me peace of mind) and painted it myself.

 

I took it back yesterday and it passed with flying colours. I really hope this helps people with the same problem.

 

Attached File  photo 1.JPG   125.75KB   1 downloads

Attached File  photo 2.JPG   150.34KB   0 downloads

Attached File  photo 3.JPG   130.59KB   0 downloads

Attached File  photo 4.JPG   126.13KB   1 downloads

Attached File  photo 5.JPG   116.96KB   0 downloads

Attached File  n46 recall.pdf   1.76MB   13 downloads

 



#64 rose1081

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 04:04 AM

That's great! Can I ask where you got the towbar/ which one you got?

Thanks

#65 wilbo85

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 05:45 AM

I got it off ebay and it was a Mopar. It has Brink stamped all over it though.

 

One other thing is I read that the fuel tank buldges when full so when you take it in have as little fuel in as poss. Apparently it can make a difference of up to 5mm



#66 JanetBrown

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:36 AM

Ok so having received a letter from Customer Relations in response to another email, I have sent a letter to them detailing several points and several questions. I have also asked for a timeline for responses.

 

I have also spoken to a local company that specialises in selling caravans/Horse trailers and ancillary equipment related to towing.  The man I spoke to said that the first they had heard of the problems we are having was yesterday from another salesman. I gave him all the information I have and he is going to research the possibility of there being another towbar that will meet the requirements of the safety recall.  He and I both talked about encouraging a towbar manufacturer to produce a suitable towbar to meet the requirements. He was surprised that given the number of cars involved that someone had not yet 'jumped on the bandwagon'.

 

My car is tomorrow in my local garage (not the stealership). Primarily to replace the glow plugs but they have offered  to investigate the possibility of moving the fuel tank by the required amount (as suggested on another forum), but only if it is absolutely safe to do so. They are also going to look at the distance needed between the tank and towbar to see if there is any possibility of 'trimming' the towbar to the required distance and adding extra support if appropriate.

 

I do not want to give up on this car, I have loved it since the first day I owned it, I have been a fervent recommender of Jeeps but sadly feel so let down by the fiasco over the recall  

 

As an aside, how much do people pay for replacement glow plugs - the stealership quoted £443  ($699) for them but my own garage will supply them for £60 ($95)

 

Sadly, I feel that if I do not receive a timely response that offers some form of hope, that I may have to leave 'the high road' and look at other options.  



#67 paul

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 11:30 PM

Hi all I have also been incontact with jeep again and given them a list of questions i wish answered also.I am also now looking at not taking the high road as i feel jeep are not really interested in getting the issue sorted there response times are slow to say the least to date.they have request my vin number which to date i have not given as i cannot see the reason for this given my vehicle has been done and it should be on record for .Again i will say that the number of towbar fitters who do not know of the issue is amazing indeed and we here in the uk do not have a towbar todate that will fit.I am not sure altering either tank position or towbar specs is not really advisable as you are going away from standard specs and this could result saftey and in insurance problems.I wish you luck janet ....................cheers paul ........................I am still going  down the route of new towbar from somene who will make one ...........

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#68 chris fennell

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 01:59 PM

Hi All,

I am a new member based in the UK and firstly would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this forum. Reading all your comments has given me new enthusiasm to keep fighting jeep and get them to recognise the heartache they are causing by not addressing the problem. Not being able to tow makes this fantastic vehicle unfit for purpose.

I have spoken to many dealers about the issue and most are sympathetic but will not tell you the problems with Uk towbars other than they are to close to fuel tank. Questions about the measurements are taboo. Some dealers said they would check out my tow bar but my own dealer said pointless to measure and would just remove it as there are no UK Towbars that fit the criteria. My Jeep is destined to go for its operation next Wednesday.

As I stated earlier I am a new member and was hooked on the forum but could not see attachments and had not even seen pictures of the Cross Beam. So became a member last night.

Big thanks to Furrytyke for the picture of the cross beam. What a waste of money from Jeep. I carn't believe Jeep have managed to design something that looks like a tow bar but without actually being one. Why did they not just go that little bit further and make it a tow bar?

Jeep UK have given me a case number, is this a first or am I one of many?

Regards to you all.

Chris



#69 rose1081

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Posted 27 November 2014 - 11:04 PM

I've called twice but have no case number..

#70 JanetBrown

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 02:05 AM

I have a case number following several emails, on one of the later emails they have my registration number (which I did not supply them with) on a letter I received this week they have the case number and a registration number that is one letter different to mine.  I have sent them a long response as they have 'strongly advised' I have the recall completed. There are several comments and questions contained in my response and I look forward to their reply with interest. 



#71 TonyF

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 07:09 AM

I wonder how many people are affected. I haven't looked through all the data on https://www.howmanyl...2.5_crd_limited  at the various types at least 10,000 of which probably 90% have tow bars - that is a lot of unhappy customers. Ok they may not be in the market for a new car but they would be looking for a newer replacement in future, If Jeep cant sell used cars any more, selling new ones will be tricky. 

 

Haven't seen in it in mainstream media yet but news of this will spread and fast.

 

Tony



#72 rose1081

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 08:21 AM

I'm not sure where to spread the news though? Where else do we publish this?

#73 JanetBrown

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 10:50 AM

OK just found this on the NHTSA site:

 

Date Investigation Opened: JUN 12, 2012
Date Investigation Closed: NOV 14, 2014
NHTSA Action Number: EA12005
Component(s): FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE 
All Products Associated with this Investigation orange-down.png
 
Details orange-up.png 756 Associated Documents orange-down.png
 
Manufacturer: Chrysler Group LLC
 
SUMMARY:

ODI has completed an extensive analysis of rear crash fuel tank system integrity data for the subject Jeep Cherokee, Grand Cherokee and Liberty vehicles (SVs). As of June 2013, ODI knew of 56 post-collision fatal fires, 28 non-fatal fires, and 6 fuel leak incidents (totaling 90 incidents, 75 fatalities and 58 injuries) involving the SVs. Based on this analysis, ODI issued a Recall Request Letter (RRL) on June 3, 2013 requesting that Chrysler recall the Grand Cherokee and Liberty vehicles due to the rate of fatal, non-fatal fire, and fuel leak incidents when compared to peer vehicles (compact and medium SUVs) built during the same time period. In the RRL, ODI described how the location of the aft-mounted fuel tank made the SVs vulnerable to rear impact crash fuel tank failures. During the analysis, besides the high speed/high severity crashes present in both the SV and peer vehicles, ODI observed a significant number of low and moderate speed rear impact crash related fires and leaks, particularly in the Liberty. The data also demonstrated that SVs originally equipped with towing hitch receivers (trailer hitches) appeared to be under-represented in rear-impact related fuel tank failures. In the RRL, ODI requested that Chrysler provide its response by June 18, 2013, otherwise NHTSA might proceed to an Initial Decision that the SVs contain a safety-related defect. Chrysler responded to the RRL on June 4, 2013 and vigorously disputed the tentative findings of the RRL. Among other things, Chrysler argued that the SVs had an overall safety record superior to their peers, met or exceeded all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS) and only experienced fires in severe high energy rear impacts. Nonetheless, while continuing to maintain that the SVs did not contain a safety-related defect, Chrysler proposed a recall (13V-252) of approximately 2.5M (1.6M currently registered) model year (MY) 1993 - 1998 Grand Cherokee (ZJ) and MY 2002-2007 Liberty (KJ) vehicles on June 18, 2013. The recall remedy submitted by Chrysler would employ a hitch receiver assembly consisting of a steel cross-member behind the fuel tank with forward-projecting arms bolted to the frame rails on either side of the fuel tank. For the MY 1999 - 2004 Grand Cherokee, Chrysler indicated it would conduct a customer satisfaction campaign and inspect vehicles equipped with aftermarket tow hitch receivers, and if necessary, replace any such hitch receivers whose condition may increase the risk of fuel system failure in rear crashes. Examination of the available data established that the MY 1999 - 2004 Grand Cherokee did not pose the same magnitude of safety risk as the MY 1993 - 1998 Grand Cherokee and MY 2002-2007 Liberty, particularly in low and moderate speed rear impacts. Because the agency has concluded that the vehicles do not present an unreasonable risk to safety, ODI is closing its investigation of the MY 1999 - 2004 Grand Cherokee. Although it was not within the scope of the Petition initiating this investigation or the Preliminary Evaluation preceding this EA, ODI also examined the performance of the MY 1993 - 2001 Cherokee as part of this investigation. NHTSA's assessment of the available data for the Cherokee did not establish an unreasonable risk in comparison to peer vehicles. ODI does not approve proposed defect remedies. While offering to install hitch receiver assemblies on the MY 1993-1998 Grand Cherokees and 2002-2007 Liberty, Chrysler did not, in ODI's view, provide enough evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of the proposed remedy in rear impacts. The Complete Summary for this Closing Resume (EA12-005) can be seen by opening the following document: http://www-odi.nhtsa...A12005-9765.PDF

 

 

So in light of this where do we stand in the UK, especially given that the opening states Fuel System GASOLINE - does this include DIESEL



#74 biggman100

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 11:01 AM

I have also seen this information on several other sites, as well as noting that, at least in the U.S. market, the safety recall does only seem to apply to gasoline powered models, with no evidence of a recall on diesel powered vehicles. Does anyone have proof of a diesel related recall? Possibly a letter from chrysler/fiat stating that its diesel powered Jeep is subject to the recall?



#75 JanetBrown

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 09:04 AM

I have also seen this information on several other sites, as well as noting that, at least in the U.S. market, the safety recall does only seem to apply to gasoline powered models, with no evidence of a recall on diesel powered vehicles. Does anyone have proof of a diesel related recall? Possibly a letter from chrysler/fiat stating that its diesel powered Jeep is subject to the recall?

Well I received a recall notice for my Jeep Cherokee but it did not differentiate between petrol (gasoline) or diesel in the UK



#76 TonyF

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 03:43 PM

My Mum's is a diesel and has had the new bar installed.



#77 JanetBrown

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:28 AM

Further to my post on the 26th November when I advised  that I had sent a letter to Fiat requesting answers to questions and a timeline, I have today received a letter stating that they will 'endeavour to provide a further update on this matter and answers to your questions by week commencing Monday 8th December.'

 

I await their response.......



#78 shunter65

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:47 PM

 

Hi All,

I am also a new member based in the UK.. having owned a 1993 Jeep Wrangler for nearly 12 yrs decided to upgrade and purchace a 2nd Jeep to tow the caravan.. and recently purchased in Sept 2014 a (MY05) 2005 Cherokee 2.8CRD, having bought this as spares or repair.. I have now done all the work myself required to use it (eg. timing belt kit, lower control arm bushings and an oil and filter change).

 

Whilst reading other forums, I came across one that mentioned the N46 recall ( http://www.motortren...iberty/recalls/ ) so I checked my VIN for any outstanding recalls which flagged up 2!.

The rear suspension control arms from 2011, and the N46 tow hitch fuel tank issue,  

 

So thinking the rear suspension recall was was a bit dangerous, I called into my local Stealership (on Monday 1st Dec) with my registration document with the VIN number to verify the recalls, my heart sank when they told me what the fix was for the tow hitch... gutted is an understatment!

I was offered to have the vehical booked in for both recalls and having voiced my disaproval about the tow hitch, was also offered the disclaimer and told how it would affect my insurance.

 

I have not yet been issued with any of the recall notifications from DVLA or VOSA about the problems, nor did my insurence company mention anything when I told them what the vehical would be used for (towing a caravan) and have now started researching the issue hence My post here.

 

I have now decided to wait for DVLA / VOSA to send out the notice to give me more time to look into the problem, before letting the Dealer remove my tow hitch... but I am now risking the fact that the rear suspension could fail.

 

There have been some interesting reads on here and will be keeping a very close watch on this forum.. and if I find anything that I think could help with the situation that we are all in, I will let you know.

 

I would like to thank Moses for the forum, and everyone for their input.. Especially Janet B for her determination for an answer to get a resolve.

 

p.s. Janet the reason Crysler-Jeep charge so high for the glowplug replacment is because parts of the intake manifold and alternator have to be removed to access the glowplugs and thats if they come out without breaking..

I can purchase them from a local car parts shop for about £17 each.. but there are 2 different voltages 5v and 7v and its not an easy job to do... £60 for your garage to change them is very good price!

 

Thanks Patrick



#79 Moses Ludel

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 04:35 AM

You're very welcome, Patrick, and welcome to the forums!  Janet's resolve is clear.  I'm following this thread closely and trusting that a practical solution will develop.  From your posts and comments, it is obvious that many KJ Cherokee owners at the UK purchased their vehicles to tow caravans, horse boxes and trailers.

 

On a brighter note, I'm very curious about the 2.5L CRD (common rail diesel) engine and its performance level when towing.  I'm a turbo diesel supporter and promote the benefits of modern turbo-diesel technology, especially for tow vehicles.  While this important N46 thread continues to unfold, would anyone care to start a topic on the performance level and overall impressions of the Jeep 2.5L CRD engine in the KJ Cherokee?  The KJ diesel sales numbers at the U.S. were not large, and I've wondered why this option was so often passed over.  Perhaps U.S. owners of the KJ Liberty gasoline and CRD models could comment.   

 

Your impressions of the 2.5L CRD engine's performance, fuel efficiency and ability to pull a load (for perspective, please clarify the loaded trailer weight) would be of great interest.  I considered swapping the later 2.8L KJ Liberty CRD diesel engine into the magazine's 1999 XJ Cherokee in place of the 4.0L inline six-cylinder gasoline engine.  The 4.0L Jeep gasoline engine produces similar power to the 3.7L KJ Liberty/Cherokee gasoline engine.  How does the 3.7L V-6 performance compare with the 2.5L CRD engine in the KJ Cherokee?  Did towing plans motivate your choice of the CRD?  Fuel efficiency?  Overall performance?

 

Moses



#80 JanetBrown

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 10:53 AM

p.s. Janet the reason Crysler-Jeep charge so high for the glowplug replacment is because parts of the intake manifold and alternator have to be removed to access the glowplugs and thats if they come out without breaking..

I can purchase them from a local car parts shop for about £17 each.. but there are 2 different voltages 5v and 7v and its not an easy job to do... £60 for your garage to change them is very good price!

 

Thanks Patrick

 

Hi Patrick

 

I knew that replacing the glowplugs was not an easy job, yet couldn't reconcile myself to the extortionate cost, likewise they were going to charge me £30 for replacing the A/C Clutch relay. The part was £15 so they wanted a further £15 for raising the bonnet hood and plugging it in. In total it took me less than 3 minutes, given that the bonnet would already be open for the glowplug removal I found this £15.00 labour charge ridiculous.

 

My local garage did several jobs for me including replacing the glowplugs, changing tyres around, changing brake fluid, inspecting 'faults' found by the stealership and an indepth investigation into what other options there might be for the towbar for £100 less than the price the stealership were going to charge me for just replacing the glowplugs.  

 

Yes my local garage may not have a shiny set-up, posh overalls and fleeces, their waiting room does not have a fancy tv and drinks machine BUT I trust them to make sure my car is safe, roadworthy and legal. They are local to me, have a fabulous reputation and I will use them for everything I possibly can.  Yes I am probably known by them as the mad old woman with the Jeep, but they don't treat me like an idiot, they understand that Yes I do know one part from another, (my late father wanted a boy but got me, I was helping him strip and handbuild engines from the age of 10), they are happy to explain to me what problems/fixes are, and will always take good care of my and my families cars. They are always prepared to 'go the extra mile'.  It is a pity that the Stealership is constricted by the rules that are sent from above.

 



#81 JanetBrown

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 12:41 AM

Moses and everyone else.  I have been given permission to repost an email which has been sent to another Jeep Cherokee owner in the UK- I think it clearly shows that Jeep have no intention of sorting out his problem and no concern about us in the UK.  

 

 

Jeep Cherokee Recall
Thank you for contacting Jeep Customer Relations.

We would like to acknowledge your email dated the 2nd December 2014. 

Fiat Group Automobiles UK Ltd is assisting with the coordination of aftercare of Jeep vehicles registered on or before 1st September 2010.

The recall on your vehicle is to provide an enhanced level of rear impact protection beyond the original design standards. To achieve this enhancement, it is necessary to fit a cross car beam to the rear of the vehicle.

If a tow bar is already fitted to the vehicle, it needs to be inspected to verify if it conforms to the certified clearance levels and/or the absence of sharp edges. If it does, the tow bar can remain fitted. If however, the tow bar does not meet the required specifications of this recall campaign, it should be removed and replaced by the certified cross car beam. 

We would strongly recommend that you have this safety recall completed on the vehicle as soon as is possible. 

We are not currently in the position to offer any further information as regards an alternative for the tow bar. We must confirm that we would not be in the position to offer any form of compensation for completing this type of product enhancement as part of a recall campaign. 

We can appreciate that this may not be the response that you were expecting but this is the position of Jeep UK at this time.

Should you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Relations team from Monday to Friday between 9:00 and 18:00 on our toll free number 0080004265337 choosing option number 3.


 



#82 Laney

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 08:01 AM

Thanks for keeping us updated.
I have just emailed VOSA again as their last response was that they are collating information and to also contact customer service. So I felt compelled to reply saying that contacting customer service has no effect and basically they have no answer......

#83 JanetBrown

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 10:40 AM

I have also read on another forum that there is a towbar manufacturer who, if given the measurements by Jeep, could have alternative towbars in 8 weeks.  Now that could prove interesting



#84 JanetBrown

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 02:09 PM

Just to let the UK Peeps know that due to Jeep UK removing posts on their Facebook page there is a new one set up by and for those of us affected by this recall - the object of which is to show Jeep how unhappy we are - please keep it clean, factual and sensible, to show them that if they are reasonable with us we can only help them in the future by showing their Customer Service as being just that Service for the Customer.

 

The facebook page is called Cherokee N46 Recall -please join and add your experiences and stories



#85 Moses Ludel

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 04:22 PM

From what you share, Janet, the Fiat/Jeep comments indicate that this is strictly a tow bar design issue.  There is no obstacle to towing if a hitch with the required dimensions and smooth edges can be built or currently fits:

 

"...If a tow bar is already fitted to the vehicle, it needs to be inspected to verify if it conforms to the certified clearance levels and/or the absence of sharp edges. If it does, the tow bar can remain fitted. If however, the tow bar does not meet the required specifications of this recall campaign, it should be removed and replaced by the certified cross car beam."

 

UK VOSA will apparently not compromise on this 1/4" or whatever insufficient clearance dimension.  So if we follow both UK VOSA and Fiat/Jeep logic, the existing tow bar hitch no longer meets safety requirements in the UK.  The existing Mopar replacement tow bar hitch does, however, meet U.S. N46 safety requirements.

 

Unless Fiat/Jeep redesigns and builds a Mopar hitch to the new specifications required at the UK, the only solution is another UK or U.S. tow bar hitch manufacturer.  Any manufacturer will be looking for enough sales volume/incentive to build a tow bar hitch.  The design must comply with the "certified clearance", "absence of sharp edges" and meet the customary tow capacity/safety requirements for similar tow bar hitches sold at the UK.

 

Tow bar hitch engineering is straightforward.  The manufacturing process for tow hitches is basic metal fabrication.  Safety testing and certification requirements do incur costs.  This comes down to whether it is cost-effective to design and build this tow hitch and how many UK-based KJ Cherokees already had tow bar hitches at the time of the N46 recall.  Future tow bar hitch sales would also be considered.

 

Moses



#86 JanetBrown

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 03:06 AM

Moses, I agree that this could be an easy fix if a towbar manufacturer was given the measurements needed by Jeep and was prepared to manufacture the required number of towbars. However, I feel that Jeep will not be prepared to pay for this as they do not seem to see it as an issue for them especially as in the email sent to another owner states:

 

"We must confirm that we would not be in the position to offer any form of compensation for completing this type of product enhancement as part of a recall campaign." 

 

To call it a 'product enhancement' is in my opinion insulting, given the recall deems the removal of existing towbars if necessary.

 

My other concern is the NHTSA investigation, especially as the original concern was with Gasoline Engines and the majority of Cherokees in the UK are Diesel. The investigation seems to concentrate purely on Gasoline, no mention is made of Diesel. This, in my opinion, could possibly mean that diesel engines are not deemed at risk, thereby rendering the whole recall for those cars with diesel engines as unnecessary.  



#87 Laney

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 04:40 AM

In reply to my email to vosa the most relevant bit is: "A ‘safety defect’ is defined in the Code as "a failure due to design and/or construction, which is likely to affect the safe operation of the product without prior warning to the user and may pose a significant risk to the driver, occupants and others. This defect will be common to a number of products that have been sold for use in the United Kingdom". In addition, before we can require a manufacturer/producer to instigate a safety recall, there has to be a significant risk of serious injury.

All safety recalls conducted by the various vehicle manufacturers are preventive measures to remove the risk of serious injury to the driver, occupant or others. In regards to this particular safety recall, the manufacturer identified in the USA, that a number of vehicles had suffered fires following a heavy rear impact/collision. To counter this they introduced a protection bar. Unfortunately this means vehicles fitted with tow bars have to have the tow bar removed"
My reply was: Dear sir,
Thank you for your reply, it has given me further understanding of the situation.
One section that is of interest is : "This defect will be common to a number of products that have been sold for use in the United Kingdom". In addition, before we can require a manufacturer/producer to instigate a safety recall, there has to be a significant risk of serious injury".
As far as I can gather the incidents in the US that resulted in fires were gasoline/ petrol models. There doesn't seem to be any incidents of this happening with diesel models. The vast majority of models in the UK are diesel. So the defect isn't really common to the products in the UK.
So what facts or statistics were used to conclude the significant risk and instigate the recall?

Regards

#88 chris fennell

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 07:09 AM

Hi All,

Had my Jeep crossbeam fitted Wednesday.

Jeep must have money to throw away. Cross beam fits were tow bar fits, actually looks like a tow hitch, comes complete with towing eye and the only thing missing is the tow ball. Well done Jeep designers.

Please also see attached letter from Jeep after 3 emails to Mr Steve Zanlunghi  MD Group Automobiles UK Ltd.

Regards,

ChrisAttached File  Case record 001.jpg   107.33KB   5 downloads



#89 JanetBrown

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 07:47 AM

Hi All,

Had my Jeep crossbeam fitted Wednesday.

Jeep must have money to throw away. Cross beam fits were tow bar fits, actually looks like a tow hitch, comes complete with towing eye and the only thing missing is the tow ball. Well done Jeep designers.

Please also see attached letter from Jeep after 3 emails to Mr Steve Zanlunghi  MD Group Automobiles UK Ltd.

Regards,

Chrisattachicon.gifCase record 001.jpg

Yep I've got one of those letters, mine promises a further response to my comments and questions next week. Interesting that your letter does not have your vehicle reg on it though



#90 Moses Ludel

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 08:20 AM

These forums are more than message boards, they are "communities".  I have followed this thread intently.  Towing with your KJ Cherokee models is obviously important.  As UK owners of KJ Cherokee models, you have expressed your dismay over the prospect of losing the ability to tow with your gasoline and diesel powered KJ Cherokee models.  From your research and expressed concerns, the facts and remaining questions are clear: 

 

1) Facts:  In the U.S. NHTSA agreement, what UK VOSA calls a "protective bar" remedy is an existing Mopar tow bar hitch.  At the UK, the "protective bar" is a replacement brace without a towing provision.  The UK VOSA interpretation of the N46 safety recall for the KJ Cherokee has presented design and bar-to-tank clearance requirements that make it impossible to use an existing Mopar or other currently available tow bar hitch at the UK. 

 

2) Facts:  KJ Cherokee owners are asked to either remove their existing tow bar hitches or forfeit access to required vehicle insurance.  Consumers/owners of the KJ Cherokee who tow are left with the responsibility and expense of approaching tow bar manufacturers for a redesigned tow bar hitch.  If and when such a hitch can be produced, the cost of the hitch and installation are at the KJ Cherokee owner's expense.  In the meantime, owners must accept the "cross brace" installation and forego towing with their KJ Cherokee.

 

3) Questions:  How does UK VOSA determine these clearance dimensions?  KJ Cherokee owners share that existing tow bars fail the clearance test by only 1/4-inch.  Why does UK VOSA not accept the N46 safety recall agreement, the installation of a Mopar tow bar hitch, established between Fiat/Jeep and the U.S. NHTSA?

 

4) Facts:  Rather than redesign the Mopar tow bar to meet the UK VOSA dimensions, Fiat/Jeep has assumed the expense of creating a special cross brace to meet the UK VOSA requirement.  This cross brace has no towing provision.  Consumers with existing tow bars, including the current design Mopar tow bars, can no longer tow with their KJ Cherokee at the UK. 

 

5) Facts:  At the U.S., the safety recall does not specify whether the vehicles of concern are gasoline or diesel powered.  The N46 recall entitles all owners of the Jeep KJ Liberty (i.e., UK "Cherokee" design vehicles) to receive a free and installed Mopar tow bar hitch as the N46 safety recall remedy.

 

6) Facts:  At this point, neither Fiat/Jeep nor UK VOSA is seeking a solution on behalf of KJ Cherokee owners who tow or have existing tow bar hitches that met UK VOSA and U.S. NHTSA safety requirements prior to the N46 safety recall.

 

7) Facts:  UK Jeep KJ Cherokee owners should be able to use their vehicles to tow trailers, caravans and horse boxes within the approved weight limits recognized at the UK.  Janet Brown's research includes UK vehicle documents that designate the trailer weight a Jeep KJ Cherokee can legally tow.  Towing is an implied function of these vehicles.

 

Possible solutions on behalf of UK owners of Jeep KJ Cherokee models:

 

1) UK VOSA reviews the U.S. NHTSA acceptance of the existing Mopar tow bar hitch remedy and accepts installation of this hitch as an N46 recall safety solution at the UK.  The Mopar cross brace without tow provision could be an option for owners who do not want a tow bar hitch installed.

 

2) Mopar or another tow bar/hitch manufacturer builds a tow hitch that meets the UK VOSA clearance and dimension requirements.  The hitch must have smooth edges.  This tow bar hitch would be recognized as a suitable remedy under the UK VOSA N46 safety recall.

 

The conversation between Fiat/Jeep and UK VOSA is not complete yet.  In the interest of UK forum members, I would like to see a sensible solution for owners of Jeep KJ Cherokee vehicles who have towed with their vehicles and intend to continue towing.

 

Moses



#91 Laney

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 09:07 AM

Moses,
Thank you for your time in posting on this forum as you do and to other contributors as well.
If I could just add a little bit more to the above list. Another point is not only is it important to continue towing but it also needs sorting for those that don't tow as the future resale value has plummeted. Most of these KJ's are 10/15 years old and not worth many thousands but even so a possible part ex for another Jeep could now be out of the question for some.

#92 JanetBrown

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 05:16 AM

Moses, absolutely perfectly explained.  I wish you were in charge of Fiat over here, at least then we would have someone who understood life as a 4x4 driver.  It would make life so much simpler if they just installed a new towbar to those vehicles that needed to have the old ones replaced.  

 

I will update you when I receive the response that has been promised by week beginning 8th December 2014 from Fiat



#93 MikeK

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 04:34 AM

Hi All,

 

I've been reading through this topic and have just joined, so that I can give you the current situation, as far as I am informed.

 

We have a UK '56' plate Cherokee sport (Liberty in US) 2.8 CRD.

Like many, we bought this gas guzzler because they were claimed and reported as such a good tow car. We tow a caravan and a horse trailer and to date, we have been happy.

When we bought this vehicle, it had spent the first year of its life as the 'dealer demonstrator'.

The main Jeep dealer (no longer existing) fitted a Whitter tow bar, from new, because the OEM Mopar tow bar had never been submitted for approval for use within Europe and the UK.

 

We recieved the recall letter recently and arranged the inspection 2 days ago at the nearest Jeep dealer. - It failed the inspection !

The required gap, between the tow bar and the fuel tank, is 42mm (just over 1 5/8 inch).

The existing gap is approximately 20mm (7/8 inch).

 

The garage informed me that, out of all of the vehicles they have tested, including those fitted with Mopar tow bars, only 2 have "just about passed".

The only option is to have this 'safety bar' fitted and the vehicle recorded as "incapable of towing" or to sign a waiver that you wish to retain the existing tow bar.

 

I asked the following questions:

1) Can the recall letter be ignored? - Your risk. It will be recorded on the database that the vehicle has not been checked for compliance of a safety recall.

2) Can the existing tow bar be modified, on its mounts, to increase the gap? - Answer: NO it will weaken the towing capability and constitute a ' unaproved modification'.

3) Can the fuel tank (diesel) be repositioned to increase the gap? - Answer: NO it will constitute an 'unaproved modification'.

4) Can the supplied 'safety bar' (which is puny, compared to the Whitter tow bar) be modified to carry a tow ball? - NO it will constitute an 'unaproved modification' and is not strong enough.

5) Can an alternative tow bar be supplied? - NO there is none approved, for use with the jeep, within UK and Europe and Chrysler never submitted the vehicle for EU towing tests either !!!

6) Can the 'safety bar' be removed and the towbar refitted? - Your risk in knowingly carrying out a modification that contravenes a safety issue.

7) How does this affect my insurance? - Not our problem, that is a matter between VOSA and the insurance companies, but is liable to cause an issue.

 

So, basically, STUFFED.

Meanwhile, resale values of Jeep have, this weekend, gone through the floor.

I have also read, elsewhere on the internet, that Fiat negotiated a waiver against 'historic liabilities' when they bought the remaining 53% of Chrysler from the US goverment, which is obviously why they just don't care.

So much for JEEP (Just Empty Everyones Pockets).



#94 MikeK

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:00 AM

Further to the above, I have more information that may be of interest.

Many towbar manufacturers have removed this vehicle from their listings, however, some are still listing it.

One in particular, that have a good name, I sent an email to as follows...

 

"I have a '56' Jeep Cherokee Sport 2.8 CRD
I see you list a flanged towbar available, from yourselevs, that is suitable for this vehicle.
In view of the current ongoing problems, with the Jeep/VOSA safety recall on these vehicles, and so many failing on towbar to fuel tank clearance, can you confirm that your towbar does meet all of the requirements and gives at least 42mm clearance from the fuel tank?
If this is the case, there are a lot of people, in the UK like myself, that may be very interested in continuing to be able to tow with our vehicles."

 

I have received a response, within half an hour, it reads as follows...

 

"Hi

The tow bar meets the EC/94/20 reg 55 spec which is current for tow bar legislation on this vehicle. This spec was given by Jeep for the original approval; until Jeep re-issues a new spec for the tow bar which can be verified by the V.C.A. we are not able to confirm if the bar is acceptable or not as the gap you speak of was not mentioned in the original approval. It is illegal for us to change the bar in any way without invalidating its type approval which would mean that we could no longer sell the tow bar. So until Jeep officially makes a notification of change we can only continue to sell the tow bar in its current form.

Since Jeep gave the original specification for the bar it is unlikely that they will now change it due to the costs involved in compensation to the various tow bar manufacturers concerning the thousands of product that have distributed by the tow bar industry, we believe this is why the “recall” is on a voluntary basis.

As of this moment we are still awaiting communication from Jeep Europe concerning our request for information, the matter has also been passed to the V.C.A. who is the governing body of the tow bar industry.

Sorry it is a vague answer but as stated previously we are unable to change anything on the tow bar without clarification from Jeep."

 

So it appears, as expected, that the problem is solely Jeep.

Furthermore it is quite clear that ANY towbars, currently on offer for this vehicle, are offered without any guarantee that they will meet this 'magic' 42mm clearance requirement.

The remaining companies listing them will still supply, BUT there is no way that they will fit for you - too much liability.


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#95 Laney

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 10:01 AM

Hi, interesting info thanks.
I'd read before somewhere about chrysler not submitting for the EU towing tests. Makes you wonder how any towbars got on the market before all of this.Weren't vosa involved at that point.
The moving of the fuel tank is an odd one as over on jeepclub forum there is a mechanic at jeep who has been doing that and getting a few passed.

#96 Laney

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:03 AM

Found the original sales brochure. See towing a boat and how good the 2.8 crd is for towing and the weight limit from the specification. It is the brochure for UK market.
But they hadn't submitted it for testing?

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#97 shunter65

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:40 AM

Hi all,

Well I have also been doing a little digging myself locally.. 

 

Today I visited a local Sheffield towbar manufacture who builds 'European Type Aproved' towbars.

I took with me a copy of the Crysler Dealer instructions regarding the N46 recall ( http://www-odi.nhtsa...3V252-5228P.pdf ) and asked to speak with one of the fitters..

 

(Please read as extra costs are involved if your vehicle has been damaged in a previous bump or there is excessive corrosion for the fiting of the 'Beem')

 

Some of the Q and A's 

 

Q/ As a manufacturer are you aware of the Crysler Jeep N46 recall for the towbars?

A/ Yes, We had a letter saying there was a problem, but don't know much else.

 

I then showed him the Dealer Instructions and pointed out the issues with all after market towbars fitted to 2002 -2007 Jeep Cherokee's not meeting the requirements, including photos of the one fitted to Mine, and continued with what Crysler/Jeep UK were offering as a fix to this problem. i.e. 'The Support Beem' and also showed him the replacement offered to Jeep owners in the USA (and I think

Australia are now being offered the same Mopar hitch) he said that design would not be accepted in Europe.

 

Q/ If I alter or modify my exsisting towbar to meet the clearence required from the fuel tank could it still be used safely?

A/ No!.. and we won't do any alterations as its against our company policy. if any alterations are made its an alteration in design and that design has already been set for that manufacture. If You want to alter the design of Your towbar that is souly down to yourself but then it wouldnt be safety Type Approved anymore. I sugest you find a towbar that does.

 

Q/ Would it be possable to redesign a 'Type Approved' towbar to refit to our Jeeps to keep within specs of the recall requirement so we could continue to use them as intended for towing?

 

He ask if he could borrow the Dealer Instructions Document and take it with him upstairs and speak with thier designer.. after 10 minutes He returned..

 

A/ No! as it would involve cost and it wouldn't be pratical to make a new towbar for a vehicle that is already 10yrs old, and that the Man upstairs said you will need to speak with Jeep about getting compensation.

I explaned again that all jeep were offering was the 'Beem' and any compensation has already been ruled out. 

 

He replied: So if Jeep can't offer anything, and you can't find a towbar that meets the requirements.. it looks like your going to be stuck with a vehicle you cant tow with.. You can try speaking with the Vehicle certification Agency (VCA) they should know about this matter and maybe they can tell you more.

 

 

Im already convinced this hopeless.  :(

 

Regards Patrick



#98 MikeK

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 01:08 PM

Yes, this is a disgusting situation.
Unfortunately, I think the images Laney posted (above) tell the story. Look at the small print on the last one...
"The company reserves the right to make alterations to the described product (without?) notice or obligation".
I think it's a case of 'caveat emptor' buyer beware!

The thing that is really hurting is that, here in the UK, Many of the owners affected bought their vehicles specifically for towing horse trailers.
Jeep are sticking their fingers up at us, whilst still sponsoring horse related events, big time, to promote their brand.
Not just the events, but the competitors.

Hopefully, the event organisers and the competitors will have enough decency to support their 'fans' and stick their fingers up a Jeep but, I somehow doubt it. After all it's all about money and the average person doesn't count.

How about organising an owners vehicle blockade of Jeep (Fiat) UK HQ at Slough Berkshire?
Then again, probably a waste of time and money, after all it's in Berkshire, BERK describes Jeep pretty well in the UK.

#99 paul

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 12:57 AM

hi all 

We may as yet have a legal fix for the towbar problem in the new year ,at  present i cannot let out full details  but i am hopeful of a result .because of this possible new legal get us all of the hook i am holding back from selling my jeep (not that it would be worth much)May i ask any one who is thinking down these lineS to hold of as you might have a great deal to gain.I am sorry i cannot let you all know but please take my word for the time being ,I will as soon as i can confirm the issue will be back here .....DON1T GIVE UP JUST YET  PLEASE . I hope this gives you all a bit of possible relief and anyway our beloved jeeps are not worth much as they are ........Hope you all have a Merry Christmas and all of us a Happier new Year...................cheers paul......

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#100 paul

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 01:14 AM

Hi all...we all might have a get out of jail  legal option in the new year.I cannot as yet release the imformation until i am sure it can be done .At present i am sure we will get there and due to this i have put of selling my worthless jeep .I will know more in the new yr fingers crossed,I ask you all to hold on for a while longer as i believe we will all gain from it .I hope this message  will give you all some small relief for now ...I can only ask you all to hang in there ,as soon as i know you will be the first to know ............Don`t give up.......best wishes for the festive season...Paul

 

 

 

 

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#101 Laney

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 03:27 AM

Ok well you've got me interested. Not thinking of selling yet but if this does get sorted then hopefully will retain a bit more value when the time comes.
Fingers crossed. Cheers Paul.

#102 JeeperMare

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 03:37 PM

Hi all. Joined tonight. Another victim of Jeep's incompetence. I have a case number and an email saying they're reviewing the situation. No recognition of the fact they're breaching the sale of goods contract we entered into when buying our towing vehicles. I also have a case with citizens advice but no news on that avenue yet.
This recall is like selling a soft top car then disabling the roof lowing mechanism as it is unsafe to drive with the roof down, or with a stereo rhat the cut the power to as it's unsafe. It is complete BS and I really want to swear now! Interesting reading through this thread and I hope Paul you do have a way forward because I like probably most of us cannot afford to just go buy another car.

#103 paul

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 11:47 PM

hi all...back again with YES additional good news ..i taking my cherokee in next week for fitting check of a NEW MK2 tow-bar and if successful it will go for testing and saftey appoval,again i am at this stage unable to release who is going to do ths, please again bear with me we are all a bit closer to getting a legel  way out and DON`T GIVE UP ....Again this news is getting better for all of us ...we may all have a new year wish ....hi hi..

 

                                                    Keep reading and adding your comments ..................I will report back next week  as to how Iit goes

 

 

                                        BEST WISHES Paul

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#104 shunter65

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 02:49 AM

 

hi all...back again with YES additional good news ..i taking my cherokee in next week for fitting check of a NEW MK2 tow-bar and if successful it will go for testing and saftey appoval,again

 

Paul

 

Can I ask at whos expence? 



#105 JanetBrown

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 05:56 AM

OK so response received from Fiat today - important paragraphs as follows:
 
"We are in the process of identifying a tow bar that will meet the requirements of this recall campaign. At this time, it is not possible to offer a precise timescale for the completion of this process however, we would like to assure you that we are doing all we can to source a tow bar as soon as possible.
 
We would also mention to you that the recall was issued in accordance with the Code of Practice for Safety Defects as agreed between the Department for Transport and in compliance with UK General Product Safety Regulations 2005. The recall in the USA was launched at the same time as the lunch in the EMEA region.
 
We will respond to you in more detail once this process in complete."
 
 
So perhaps all is not lost - However, there is no timescale, but I would like to think.they are anxious to get this sorted to make us go away and stop creating bad publicity  (no I have not been eating 'brownies')  Just trying to get through this fiasco

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#106 JeeperMare

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 10:59 AM

Thank you Paul and Janet and thank you Facebook and Forums for enabling us to unite during this difficult time. Keep posting and we'll keep following:-)

#107 paul

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Posted 13 December 2014 - 11:12 AM

hi Not sure of whos expense as yet but its a step in the right direction and it will be legal.......the jeep at present has little value oN the open market and anything that will get the vehicle back to towing for me has to be checked. My jeep has only done 40,000 miles and is in mint condition ,it will be cheaper even if we have to pay than replacing it.Looking at Janet reply (latest) it appears jeep are looking into a replacement bar ...makes you think does it not.....With mine going for fitment check....................

 

                                                                    WILL BE BACK WITH MORE NEWS AS I GET IT CHEERS EVERYONE ...

 

                                                                                       JEEP I THINK ARE FEELING THE PRESSURE

                                                    

                                                                                  STAY WITH IT .WE ARE MOVING IN RIGHT DIRECTION

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#108 Laney

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 01:36 AM

Paul and Janet thanks for keeping us updated. I'm putting 2 and 2 together. ....
Paul, my jeep is of similar mileage and condition and the thought of it suddenly loosing so much value, well I won't use the words on here.

#109 MikeK

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 03:02 AM

I have a question, that I am hoping someone can answer for me.

The 'tool' that they are using, to test the tank/tow bar clearance is like a double ended lollipop.

We know that the larger end is 42mm diameter and is used to test the 'front to back' clearance between the tow bar and fuel tank.

 

What I can't seem to find out is...

1. What is the size of the smaller end of the test tool?

2. Am I correct in assuming this is used to test the 'side clearances' between the fuel tank and tow bar mounting brackets?



#110 paul

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 05:22 AM

hi all

  the tool which was used on my jeep (lollypop)only checked the distance between the rear of the tank and to nearest part of tow-bar.Thery inspect the rest to check for any jagged edges in and around tank and tow-bar.Having watched the check i am pretty sure that the distance is the most likley failure  thus making all tow bars usless in the uk.Chrysler have altered the specs regarding distance of tow bar with new test (they reserve the right to alter vehicle specification without prior notice) All tow bars to date unless otherwise stated are made to old specifications,which makes then not fit for use Any tow bar being sold now (some on Ebay etc) would i think not be fitted by a fitter if they are made aware of the issue and posibly have no warranty either.I am hoping to have fresh news later this week with regard to LEGAL way out .Read my earlier notes on here and also what the email suppied by Janet (latest) from chrysler,which now make you think a bit

 

 

    Cheers to all ....Hang in there......we are having effect....may it be slow ........as said earleir we may get good new year news...........

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#111 mad mechanic

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 11:48 AM

hi all names andy i own a cherokee thats had the beam fitted but i also work for a main jeep dealer in uk so have first hand experience of this situation lol the tool is in 3 parts one is for the grand cherokee and the othjer is for the kj the smaller end of the spoon ( as its known) is 23.5 mm in diameter and is used to measure the clearance in the centre if a tank guard is fitted the other curved spoon is used to measure the clearance at each end of the bar, not the side but the end. if you get my meaning.  We have been moving fuel tanks  forward and have had some good results, the THULE/BRINK/MOPAR bars have been passing with no issues after sliding the tank forward. Whoever siad it is not allowed to move the tank is talking bull as i have reported this directly to jeep technical who have now been advising the factory and FCA direct. They ARE working on a fix and have been for some weeks but wont release any details till all testing has been done. hope this helps

cheers andy



#112 paul

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 09:48 PM

hi all 

Nice to have a jeep tech on board and good news to hear that jeep are working on a fix ....funny how lont it has taken them when you consider how long they have known about it (USA)first now here and i don1t consider moving fuel tanks forward a proper fix at all.If this is the answer why has it taken so long to come up with it if it gets passed and if that is the final answer are they going to pay to have my tow bar refitted again .Seems a bit late in the day..It  also appears different jeep dealers are checking different things ,as i was present when mine was done and there was a NO  answer when the question was raised at the time and i was informed that this would be altering manufactures specs ....are all dealers on the same trip begs the question........

 

    Cheers all ....hang in there ....it gets better all the time........no Constance method of checking......another interesting piece of information

 

 

                                               thanks paul

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#113 MikeK

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 01:26 AM

Hi All,

Hi Andy, I think I've been reading your very helpful posts, on this subject, on another forum.

Thanks for the information on the 'spoons'.

So large end it 42mm diameter for centre of tow bar to tank, small end is 23.5mm at same position if a tank guard is fitted, the cranked spoons are for tow bar to tank gap at the left and right ends of the tow bar, not the sides, is this correct?

are the sizes on the cranked spoon also 23.5mm?

 

Reason why I am asking is this...

I have a Witter tow bar, fitted from new, by the 'old' Jeep dealer in Worcester (no longer existing).

Following what I think is your 'other' posts, I had a crawl about on the drive, with my socket set on Saturday - not too easy due to recovering from double hip replacement.

Managed to slacken the tank strap bolts near the axel and found I could move the tank quite a lot.

Gap increased from around 12mm to aroung 38mm - not enough but better.

Wondering if this weekend I can persuade the tow bar to move a few mm in the other direction, to make the 42mm. Not sure if I should consider elongating the holes a few mm.

 

I was just concerned when I saw how narrow the gap is, either side, between the ends of the tank and the tow bar mounting brackets, which is why my question about the use of the other spoons.

Seems to me that, in a 'rear ender' there is as much danger of the sides of the tank being damaged, but they are obviously not concerned about this.

 

Point of interest: The current 'fix' is to fit this pathetic cross beam. Due to the variations found, are any checks being done to see if the cross beam always makes the same 42mm gap?

 

Looking forward to more positive updates from Paul, the Jeep is used to tow a caravan AND a trailer with 2 horses in it so the 'no tow fix' currently offered is totally unacceptable for me.



#114 paul

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 08:51 AM

hi all

  I have just returned from my trial fitting of a mk2 tow bar which exceeds the required measurements thus making it a LEGAL fitting,The bar will now go for testing under UK regulations and safety requirements., and this will hopefully be done for the new year at which point i will have more news and who is making it Please be patience till then ......we are winning a bit at a time.

 

 

   Hang in there ..........another move forward on killing this issue off has been achieved today.......I hope this again gives us all more conifdence

     

                                             Best wishes to you all for the festive season............

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#115 paul

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 03:16 AM

     :) BREAKING NEWS...............BREAKING NEWS..............BREAKING NEWS...............BREAKING NEWS.................BREAKING  NEWS.. :)
 

        

 

Hi all
I have this morning received the news that a NEW tow bar is going to be available in the new year from......TOW TRUST tow- bars who are gearing up for production in the NEW YEAR.I wish to thank TOM and all his staff at TOW TRUST for making the decision to go for it,We all  have a aging vehicle and which is not in production, so this is a life saver to all of us KJ owners.I hope that you will SUPPORT this company .Tom and his staff listened and took on board the problem and have come to the table with a LEGAL offering.This is hopefully the final hop to all of us with the problem and we can move on .As we all know no corrective move from Chrysler has come out  to date but only to fit the useless bar.Contact link below..   part number TCH1
State new tow bar ....

 

                       It has taken a British company to sort the problem out ......fly the flag...........support  TOM and TOW TRUST........

 

 

                        Attached File  BRITISH FLAG FLYING.gif   33.6KB   0 downloads    http://www.tow-trust...rch/search:tch1
 
  The decision is yours now ,but at least you now have one. :) :).remember this company has at least offered you a tow-bar and a LEGAL FIX ;) ;)
 
                                                       THANKS TO YOU ALL FOR HANGING IN THERE AND STAYING WITH ME
 
                                            .THANKS FOR READING THE FORUM ON THIS ISSUE.WITHOUT YOUR INPUT WE HAVE NO FORUM
 
                                             A BIG thank you to MOSES FOR GIVING US A PLATFORM TO SHARE OUR NEWS AND UPDATES ON JEEP ISSUES
 
                                                MAY IT CONTINUE AND KEEP READING AND ADDING ....CHEERS PAUL...HAPPY CHRISTMAS ONE AND AL

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#116 MikeK

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 07:56 AM

Hello Everyone.

Well Done Paul!

Well Done Tow Trust Limited!

 

I have just been talking with both Paul and Tow Trust - What nice, PROACTIVE people.

OK, here's the situation.

They have solved the problem.

Never mind waiting for Jeep or Fiat.

Contact TOW TRUST direct. Here's a link to their web site. www.tow-trust.co.uk

 

They have gathered all of the information from Jeep and VOSA.

They have redisigned their tow bar for the Jeep.

They did a trial fitting, on Paul's vehicle.

They have been running the tests and are now just awaiting the official certificate to be issued, which will be around January 5th. 2015.

They will then go into production.

They even have a night shift on, laser cutting parts, ready for manufacture NOW!

They have ALREADY updated their web site, the item you want is under Chrysler/Jeep, it is item TCH1.

Fitting instructions are there, as PDF.

 

It gives - WAIT FOR IT !

Clearance between centre of tow bar to tank = 90 mm

Clearance between ends of tow bar to tank = 110mm

Clearance between the ends of the tank and the tow bar mounting points = 35mm

 

When they have received the actual certificate, they will start to supply and fit if required.

I have already ordered mine - second in queue to Paul, although they are only half hour from work, so I'll race you Paul :-0)

 

So, do you ALL understand?

TOW TRUST Ltd

Carlyon Road Ind. Estate
Atherstone Warks CV9 1JE

 

tel: 01827 717412

 

This is a UK company that have supported us, let's support them - order now and forget this ever happened!



#117 Laney

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 08:26 AM

Great news. I wonder if Jeep will order a job lot? Already had a tweet from Tow Trust, how does that even work? Will have to ask the kids.
Hope new towbar has a big union jack sticker visible on it. Cheers guys. Merry Christmas.
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#118 JanetBrown

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:35 AM

Great news. I wonder if Jeep will order a job lot? Already had a tweet from Tow Trust, how does that even work? Will have to ask the kids.
Hope new towbar has a big union jack sticker visible on it. Cheers guys. Merry Christmas.

 

If not a big union jack I hope that Tow Trust will provide/sell some very large stickers/decals that we can put on our cars to support them and to thank them for their help in this.  

 

As I have said elsewhere however, I am concerned that if we all buy from Tow Trust direct ourselves, will this not disincentivise Fiat from providing them free of charge to those who are affected, especially those who do not have the funds to purchase and fit.

 

I do not in any way mean to offend, especially those who have gone so far in helping us sort this out. I merely want to ensure that Fiat takes full responsibility for the situation that we have, through no fault of our own, found ourselves in. IMHO Fiat should be ordering these from Tow Trust and fitting them for us, or even better paying Tow Trust to supply and fit these. Even though I have had no dealings with Tow Trust I would trust them to do a better job that the stealerships.


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#119 chris fennell

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:36 AM

Fantastic News.

I had every confidence a solution would be found, but could not believe how quickly a manufacturer had responded to our plight. well done Tow Trust and a big thank you to Paul for all his efforts.

Lets not ease off the pressure on Jeep as they created the problem.

Just come back from Spain and no crossbeams fitted there. Is it just a UK problem now ? Furthermore the earlier Jeep Cherokee sport also has the fuel tank behind the axle as per KJ. So how come no recall on this model.

Regards  and a Merry Christmas to all.



#120 MikeK

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:13 PM

Hi All,
Here is my opinion, for what it's worth...
The vehicle was bought to tow with.
Chrysler/jeep/Fiat whatever they want to call themselves, screwed us up so that we could no longer legally tow with our vehicles, and also leave us wide open to insurance problems.
Now, my major concern is that I can tow, as intended, legally, fully insured and without substantial financial loss with a vehicle that can no longer legally do the job for me.
If you want to wait for Jeep, then I suggest you do not hold your breath.
I would much rather use a product, specifically designed, tested and certified for the job, at a much lower cost than what I would lose in the value of a tow car that can no longer legally tow, and try to get compensation from Jeep later.
We have a UK company that have taken the financial gamble of redesign and approval of an accessory for a vehicle that is no longer made.
That is ONE HELL of a commitment of faith that even Jeep themselves were not prepared to commit to.
Let's be clear.
Jeep were forced into this recall and only did it voluntarily, at the last minute, because that meant they could not be forced to do anything.
Their quick fix, in the US, was to just fit their OEM tow bar. They could not do this in the UK and Europe because they had never had the Mopar tow bar approved for use outside the U.S., YES, that's right, if you have a Mopar tow bar on your Cherokee, it does not have EU approval for use, so, just as big a legal and insurance problem, even if it did make the magic 42mm clearance.
I see some are already attempting to raise a legal 'class action' against the owners of Jeep (Fiat)on this matter. How long do you think that will take?
The other thing to realise is this, when Fiat bought the remaining 52% ownership of Jeep, from the U.S. Government(yes the government) they negotiated an agreement that they could not be held responsible for liabilities arising prior to their ownership.
So me?
I'm supporting the UK company that has solved the problems, I'm legally and fully insured, towing again as soon as possible. That's the primary concern.
If I can get any compensation from jeep later, all well and good.
If I cant, for the sake of around £250 I'm going to be towing again.
That is a lot less than loss of value, the insurance excess if someone hits me up the back end through no fault of my own and less that the fine and points I would get if the insurance company decided to say I wasn't insured (once they've updated the database, those cameras are really quick - I know, because a member of my family uses one).

So, wait for Jeep if you want to, I thought we were all complaining we needed to tow...
Or, be proactive and you can - your choice.

#121 JeeperMare

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 02:06 PM

I will buy direct if I need to but I have emailed Fiat on my case reference for a response to this development. I'm Not prepared to have an illegal solution or no tow bar so I just need to find who in Somerset can fit this new tow bar. I'm tempted to desert the Jeep dealership I use but it's not their fault we've been given this nightmare to navigate so I'm undecided on that. Massive thanks to Tow Trust for delivering a solution. Much appreciated.

#122 paul

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:41 PM

HI All

  i must agree with Mike k comments who sums the package of worms up if you wish to wait on chrysler then so be it ,The fact that you have a tow bar available for a what i thinkis a very good price ( vehicle age and not in production) that exceeds the specs and is BRITISH MADE gets you legal .The work i did to find a tow bar maker who is prepared to take it on and find TOM at tow trust has done that and got it to the market is such a small space in time has to rewarded ....BUY IT...Where is chrysler ( ref janets last email looking for poss towbar source) they must be on the moon and for me are a i have said before dragging there feet.....THEY ARE NOT CONCERNED ......The vehicle you are driving wheter you tow or has lost a lot of its value and to replace it will cost a lot more than a tow bar.You can chase Chrysler after as i would be very surprized if they will pay for a tow bar anyway (they have reversed that issue in the states and fitted a get me by bar) In the uk ther are appoc 160,000 units that have been regristered take a % out and think how many are still out there and do the sums ,Thats some cost to chrysler and  i really think there line of defence will be ..WE HAVE PUT THE VEHICLE  INTO A SAFE STATE....and will try to throw the problem onto the after market  tow bar makers.To date they have only pushed the MOPAR BAR  and that does not meet uk standards ,So i really do not think it is the right road to go down  chasing them whilst time is ticking and you cannot tow..I know where i am going and thats LEGAL ALL THE WAY.....SUPPORT BRITISH MADE TOW BAR..................................TOW TRUST IS YOUR ONLY CHOICE  AND RIGHT PRICE            .

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#123 MikeK

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:08 AM

JeeperMare,

 

You say you need to find someone in Somerset, who can fit the new Tow Trust towbar?

I've just googled, here's the first result...

http://www.towbarsandtowing.co.uk/

They provide a mobile fitting service, covering Somerset, Glouscestershire etc. and list Tow Trust as an existing supplier.



#124 JanetBrown

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 02:31 PM

Paul/MikeK

 

I understand what you are saying regarding supporting a British company who has managed to save us from being unable to tow - BUT I think you have missed the point I was trying to make. 

 

 I like many others cannot afford to purchase and have fitted a new towbar, it will have to be saved up for.  I would not wish to try and  talk anyone out of the opportunity to purchase a towbar from TowTrust, however, I feel that the more people that go this way will give FIAT the opportunity to avoid being held responsible for the fiasco we have all found ourselves in.

 

Yes FIAT are dragging this out, are being divisive and confusing matters with different departments of the company giving different information, but I want them to accept responsibility and pay for the new towbars. The legal advice that I was given was to allow FIAT time to sort this out, and my first contact with the powers that be within the company setting out the issue is less than 4 weeks. 

 

I think that TowTrust deserve a medal for what they have done and look forward to being able to legally tow again (once I've saved up the money). 



#125 JeeperMare

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:43 PM

Thanks MikeK. Just need the bar now then 👍

#126 JeeperMare

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 03:47 PM

Janet
Fiat may not want to be accountable but they can kiss goodbye to 30,000+ potential future customers because will you ever buy from them now? This may not be of their making but they get to reap the benefits of poor design compounded by poor customer service/management.

#127 paul

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 12:22 AM

HI ALL

  i DON`T THINK I HAVE MISSED THE POINT JANET I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT CHRYSLER WILL PAY AND IF THEY DO IT WILL BE A VERY LONG DRAWN OUT ISSUEI DO TAKE ON BOARD YOUR COMMENTS AND IF I AM PROVED WRONG THEN SO BE IT BUT I NEED TO TOW  AND I AM GOING TO SUPPORT TOW TRUST WHO FOR ME HAVE GIVEN ALL KJ OWNERS A LIFE SAVER .I WILL BE CONTACTING CHRYSLER AND PUTTING PRESSURE ON THEM AS THEY HAVE IN THERE LAST EMAIL TO YOU THAT THEY WERE LOOKING INTO ALTERNATIVE TOW BAR....WHERE ARE THEY OR HAS THE PHONE GONE DEAD ......WE WILL SEE AND OF COURSE I ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHERS WOULD BE HAPPY FOR THEM TO PAY .........WISH YOU ALL THE BEST .......CHEERS PAUL

 

                                             TOW TRUST HAVE A .........NEW TOW BAR FOR THE KJ...........GET TOWING GET LEGAL...........EVERYONE .............

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#128 JeeperMare

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 09:36 AM

Paul. I'm already on their case but I may need a sledgehammer!

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#129 JanetBrown

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:20 AM

JeeperMare

 

The response from Pam Nagra is identical to one of the paragraphs in my response from her. A stock answer I am afraid, so we will have to keep on battling.



#130 MikeK

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:44 AM

Hi JeeperMare, Hi All, Hi my new friends Paul and Tom at Tow Trust.

 

OK let's try and clarify a few things...

 

1. I've been in touch with Jeep, they are aware that there is a solution from Tow Trust.

2. I've asked if they will authorise a free retest, once the Tow Trust product is fitted. They have said that is a 'reasonable request' and will contact me as soon as it's authorised.

3. I have asked them if they would consider "contributing" to the purchase of the new tow bar? Again, they said "it sounds a reasonable request" but they need authorisation - Remember, Fiat bought Jeep from the US Government, with the LEGAL agreement that they WOULD NOT be held responsible for previous liabilities AND this problem was indentified BEFORE they bought the company. I DO have an official case number from them.

4. I've been in to the Jeep dealer that did the initial test (I know Paul has as well) so they are aware of the situation and are also talking to Jeep UK. We will BOTH be submitting our vehicles for retest, EVEN if we have to pay ourselves, 'cos we NEED to tow, AS SOON as the NEW TOW TRUST tow bar is fitted.

4. The solution from Tow Trust EXCEEDS ALL of the requirements, it HAS ALREADY PASSED ALL of the tests, they are ONLY waiting for the official paperwork.

5. If you don't use your Jeep for towing (who wants a Jeep that can't tow?) then just have the Jeep 'safety bar' fitted and lose resale value of the vehicle.

6. If you DO tow, WAIT until after Jan. 5th. 2015 and have the Tow Trust tow bar fitted.

 

Now, here is the really 'clever bit'.

The design from Tow Trust, does not JUST meet the 'magic 42mm' it EXCEEDS it, by OVER double the ammount.

How have they achieved this?

They have moved the tow bat backward slightly AND downward slightly, so it is below the rear bumper.

Why is this VERY CLEVER? - Simple!

They have not just exceeeded the 42mm requirement, by OVER DOUBLE, thay have also ensured that IF you have someone run into the back of you, because the towbar is lower than the bumper, the vehicle colliding WILL nosedive whilst raising the rear end of the Jeep, so they WILL NOT cause the same fuel tank fractures that have caused the initial problems in 'the states'. - USA take note! - The safest solution is from Tow-Trust.co.uk.



#131 Laney

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 12:27 PM

Think I'll be waiting just to get Christmas out of the way 250+vat seems reasonable considering other towbars.Not to mention the trouble they've gone to getting these ready.Just the wrong side of Christmas for me. (realise they're not ready but assume you pay on ordering)
The EU type approval that mopar didn't have, is that the certificate they're waiting for?

#132 furrytyke

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 12:53 PM

Hello all.
Having posted on here regarding the N46 Recall, and how it is affected me, I continued to follow the threads and use this as a guide to the current state of play. Firstly may I pass on thanks to the staff at Tow Trust for their endeavours regarding this situation.
I feel however, it is right that we should stand by JanetBrown's comments in the solution to the problem. It is the Fiat/jeep group which rendered my vehicle UNFIT FOR PURPOSE, (ie: I cannot tow my caravan), and not Tow Trust. Therefore, why should I or any other owner have to pay for THEIR mistake. And as an addition, I had my aftermarket hitch fitted in August of this year at a cost of £280. By the end of October it had been removed and replace by the cross member. Can someone JUSTIFY why I should have to pay another £250 to clean up someone else's mess. I understand that people need to tow, but in my opinion feel that this would give fiat/jeep the easy way out.

#133 JeeperMare

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 05:02 PM

Thank you all for standing up for what's right. I can sleep easy knowing that there is a solution now so personally I'm going to enjoy Christmas and New Year then get me a new tow bar. I still hold Jeep/Chrysler/Fiat wholly accountable and they have my ongoing mistrust and dislike until such time as they make good the mess they have created. Merry Christmas to you all.

#134 paul

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 12:13 AM

hi all

I have received same email as Janet concerning the looking for another tow bar etc yesterday I rang them  and asked if they had been on holiday???? for the last 2yrs as the issue had started in the USA over 18months back,and at this pace the vehicles would be off the road in the scrap yard before they got it sorted  .I gave them tow trust phone number and said there was no reason for any further delays as the product was there now .Again i was left with the lack of commitment in general and we will be contacting etc.

 

Wonderful totally committed company .........CHEERS PAUL

 

 

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#135 MikeK

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 02:23 AM

Hi Laney,

Yes, the certificate Tow Trust are waiting for is for the EU type approval, everything has already passed.
If you order from either the Tow Trust web site, or by phone, you pay at the point of ordering.
If you go to their premises, or arrange fitting through a reseller, then you pay when it's fitted.

Very pleased to see Laney and JeeperMare are going to get the Tow Trust solution, so they can get towing again as soon as possible, THEN continue hounding Jeep for some form of compensation. I think that's the sensible way.

Sorry to see about furrytyke. I understand your feelings as you're one of many.
Sale of goods act, which applies to both new and second hand, states anything can be returned, during manufacturers warranty, if for example it proves to be unfit for purpose. What many don't realise is, when the manufacturers warranty has expired, the seller still has responsibility "for the reasonable expected life" of the product, typically around 6 years.
Maybe the tow bar fitted in August could be returned to the supplier for refund, as it's no longer 'fit for purpose'?
Difficult, because if it had EU approval, prior to this recall, they can legally sell it, you just can't legally use it.
However, as it was bought in August, which was after this all started, you could argue that they failed in their duty of care, to the customer, because they should have been aware, or made aware by Jeep, that it was no longer suitable.

NOW THAT would be very interesting. Imagine the additional pressure on Jeep, from Tow bar manufacturers claiming compensation for loss of trade etc. Which I KNOW is one of the things they have been worried about. One of the manufacturers I spoke to, trying to find an alternative solution before Paul found Tow Trust, actually TOLD me that it was the reason Jeep did the volantary recall and had been dragging their feet in supplying information to them.
If I was in that situation, then that is what I would try.
I would have taken a similar approach myself, when this all started, and gone back to the Jeep dealer I bought from, because they fitted the tow bar from new. The only reason I haven't is because they, sadly, no longer exist.

Never mind, we live and learn. Just a few days now and at a reasonable cost, I will be towing again with a Tow Trust product.
And YES, I WILL keep onto Jeep through my case number.
Just because a UK company have solved my urgent problem of being able to tow, which is the primary purpose of the vehicle, I'm not letting Jeep off that easy, just treating it as 2 separate problems that need solving.

#136 paul

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 05:09 AM

hi all....My new tow bar will be fitted Tuesday at tow trust factory ( the first one made) I will then take the vehicle to the local dealer (Coventry) for inspection and acceptance by them .I don`t see any problems at all in this tow bar passing.I will then chase Chrysler and keep pressure on them to come up with a solution, although i do not hold out much hope .For me this has been a journey to find a supplier of a mk2 tow-bar (Tow-Trust ) and TOM who would have a go and make it.I can now look forward to many more years of towing with my KJ jeep and being LEGAL to boot.I do hope that as many as possible KJ owners who find them selves in this position take the right path and fix the new tow--bar and at the same time keep the pressure on Chrysler to sort some thing out.The forum subject will continue i hope as we push Chrysler who now have no reason to say we are looking at ( alternative tow -bar and will let you know ).we all now know where to get the tow-bar from.......

   

                        I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy TOWING New Year see you on the road and here ..

 

 

          KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING AND ANY ADDITIONAL NEWS REGARDING CHRYSLER ANSWERS CHEERS 

 

PAUL

 

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#137 Moses Ludel

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 10:50 AM

Paul...You and Tow Trust have gone the distance on this one.  It is extraordinary for a company to design, fabricate a prototype, test, enter production and release a certified tow bar product in this short timeframe. 

 

Being on this side of the ocean, I was unfamiliar with Tow Trust and did a quick search.  The company recently invested in state-of-the-art "Carlos Test" equipment, indicating a commitment to safety and towing compliance.  Here is some information on Tow Trust that came up in my internet search:

 

Attached File  Tow Trust Carlos Test Machine.pdf   158.58KB   8 downloads Attached File  Tow Trust for KJ Cherokee Twitter.pdf   122.39KB   7 downloads

 

Tow Trust should be applauded for this quick response on behalf of KJ Cherokee owners.  I look forward to your update on the Tow Trust tow bar installation on your KJ Cherokee this week.  It sounds like the Tow Trust tank-to-tow bar space should satisfy UK VOSA and N46 requirements.  If Tow Trust has interpreted the N46 recall as intended, this could also be a sensible business decision for that company. 

 

Most importantly, I would like to know that Jeep JK Cherokee owners at the UK will be able to tow caravans, trailers and horse boxes safely.  Once it has been confirmed that the Tow Trust tow bar meets all requirements, please update on your impressions of the tow bar in service and towing your customary loads.

 

Judging by the candid comments at this topic, the N46 recall at the UK has been a daunting experience.  You have been caught in the inertia of both corporate and governmental bureaucracy.  While there are still other issues to sort out, the Tow Trust tow bar offers a promising tow solution.

 

Your goal has been the continued ability to tow with the KJ Cherokee.  As several members have stated, many of your vehicles still have plenty of remaining service life.  If the Tow Trust solution works, the utility and value of your Jeep KJ Cherokee models will be sustained.

 

Moses



#138 JeeperMare

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:06 PM

Latest email from Jeep.....
Seems they want to reengineer their own solution and take months about it whilst still leaving us all hanging. Idiots of the first order. They obviously don't have spin doctors managing thee image which is currently wriggling through the gutter!


"Thank you for your further email.

We are working with our colleagues in the US in regard to suitable tow bar. Having not tested the Tow Trust tow bar ourselves we are unable to comment on its suitability for this recall campaign. However, I will pass this information onto our Technical Department for them to review.

Kind Regards,

#139 Laney

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:50 PM

Paul, Mike. Good luck with the fitting tomorrow. Hope it goes to plan,should do, as this is what Tow Trust do.
Makes you wonder why jeep in US are still bothering to work on something.
Cheers.

#140 Laney

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:53 PM

PS
Moses and others in the US thanks for the facility of this forum, can't imagine how this would have gone without the Internet. (well it would be endless phone calls,looking in yellow pages,letters using actual paper etc)

Merry Christmas.

#141 MikeK

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 06:06 AM

Hi All,

Here is the current situation:

Paul has been to Tow Trust this morning and had the new tow bar fitted.

He also has a copy of the official EU certification from Tow Trust.

The Vehicle was re-presented, within half hour, at the Jeep dealer for re-test on the N46 recall.

Passed EASILY and Jeep records amended to show this.

He then drove over to me to have a look. VERY professional product from Tow Trust.

 

Tom, at Tow Trust then phoned me, to let me know the results and that he had stock ready.

I have just collected my new tow bar from them, AND had a tour of their production facilities.

Being an engineer myself, I assure you VERY IMPRESSIVE.

It is too late for me to have mine re-tested, at the Jeep dealer, until Jan. 5th.

 

Also, JUST has a phone call from Jeep customer services.

They have enquired if there is any news on the Tow Trust tow bar.

I’ve told them fitted and passed on first vehicle and ready to supply.

They have informed me of the following OFFICIAL decisions…

  1. They WILL allow a re-test, free of charge, with the new tow bar.
  2. They have taken the formal decision that THEY WILL NOT contribute to the cost of replacement tow bars, because THEY never sold the vehicles with a tow bar in the UK and Europe and any dealer fitted, aftermarket tow bars on the vehicles are NOT THEIR responsibility.

 

SO, there you have it.

Want to continue towing? – Contact Tow Trust.

Want to wait for Jeep? – You can FORGET IT, they don’t want to know.

 

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Merry Christmas to Tom and all at Tow Trust

Jeep UK? - A pox on you!



#142 MikeK

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 06:58 AM

Picture attached of Tow Trust tow bar.

EU approved, N46 recall passed (easily), insurable, legal, ready to tow.Attached File  IMG_0168.JPG   151.76KB   2 downloads



#143 Moses Ludel

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:56 AM

Mike, this is an attractive and well conceived tow bar from Tow Trust!  I'm pleased to hear your comments about the Tow Trust plant facility, I had that impression from the company's description of tooling and the latest Carlos Test equipment.  Tow Trust obviously reinvests in engineering, equipment and new product development.  The Tow Trust bar has now met EU and UK standards and certification, satisfies N46 recall and UK VOSA requirements and has entered the market in less than six weeks from Paul's initial contact with Tow Trust.  This is a substantial commitment by that company.

 

The Tow Trust tow bar fits properly and has esthetic appeal.  For those who want to continue towing with a Jeep KJ Cherokee at the UK, and throughout the EU, Tow Trust has provided a solution.  I applaud Tom and others on the Tow Trust staff involved with the proactive and prompt development of this Jeep KJ tow bar to meet the UK VOSA and EU requirements.  Tow Trust has provided a clear and substantial way out for Jeep KJ Cherokee owners wanting to tow with their vehicles.

 

I look forward to Paul and MikeK reporting their impressions of the Tow Trust bar in "real world" towing.  From the bar's appearance and the illustration I saw of the shape and attachment method, the package should provide the necessary safety margin.  It would be valuable to see your photos of the entire fit-up and mounting method.  Your product impressions and comments would be helpful to others considering this UK VOSA N46 solution.

 

Paul and Tom at Tow Trust deserve thanks here!  So does Janet Brown for her initiative to join this forum and bring to light your common issues.  Prior to Janet's posts, North Americans were oblivious to this dilemma faced by UK owners of Jeep KJ Cherokee models.  At the U.S., the NHTSA/Jeep KJ Liberty's N46 recall had prompted fellow member "Belvedere" to launch this topic in the first place.  He shared his delight at receiving a free Mopar tow bar assembly and installation. 

 

The utility of a Jeep KJ Cherokee intended for towing is no longer in question at the UK.  The resale value of a KJ Cherokee should no longer be in free fall, either.  You have a UK/EU certified tow bar solution that meets the requirements for the UK VOSA/Jeep N46 recall, and you also have a committed UK partner at Tow Trust.

 

Moses 



#144 paul

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:59 AM

           First of the New Tow-Bar solution for the N46 RECALL issue and passed by Chrysler dealership (DEC 22nd 2014)

                                             :)   Made by Tow Trust and fitted at the factory this Tow bar exceeds the N46 test set by Chrysler :)

                                                                                                

                                                                                          READ BELOW AND CHECK PICTURES

 

Hi all
       Well here we are at the end of my road to getting this tow bar issue sorted out.i arrived at tow trust at 9am today again TOM and his staff made me most welcome,my jeep was then taken into the bay and the Chrysler bar removed( a joke bar would not stop any think in a rear end shunt) and new bar fitted with twin electrics .I was presented with the certification paper work showing the relative information etc.I have also rung jeep customer services and informed them of the replacement  tow bar and that i had had it checked at the main dealership in Coventry who had PASSED IT.The tow bar blows the new specs away with ease .Looking at what Mike has said anyone looking for any compensation is not...... GOING TO GET ANY......The only way out is replace your tow-bars and become LEGAL AGAIN ....ASAP.. Again we need to support TOM and TOW TRUST,   they are open again from the 5th of January 2015..
I have also heard that Chrysler are looking at modifying there mopar tow -bar bit late in the day......don1t you think......again this will if running to form be well drawn out if it even gets of the ground now that a BRITISH option is available and ready now and would they really want to add to a cost base given there comment of no compensation  ????? I have to say it Chrysler have let every one down badly and will get there just deserts in the long run i am sure .......OH i forgot to mention      the new tow-bar has a tow limit of 3.5 tons ..........
 
   Well that's all for now will report back on tow bar after first tow .............thanks to Tom and all his professional staff.at TOW-TRUST to all of you who have   stuck with it and to anyone who reads the forum and I hope this will help all KJ owners on this issue....I have made additional friends on here and I hope it will continue ....oh yes MIKEK thanks for the cuppa today  and at last we met hi hi ..........Seasonal greeting to you all and I am looking forward to re-towing again ........................Paul.

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#145 JanetBrown

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 12:31 AM

I came across this whilst conducting some more research, I think the most interesting fact is that it states that only 3% yes, just 3% of over 1.5 million cars have been 'fixed'. So not that serious then ?????? or do Americans not take this seriously (ie is their insurance not compromised as in the UK).  I note that in the US it is an 'advisory', yet in the UK is is presented as 'mandatory' or no insurance in the majority of cases   By the way - it appears from another forum member that Fiat have made the official decision that they will NOT compensate or pay for the new towbars manufactured by Tow Trust - however I have yet to receive this in writing.      

 

Consumer Advisory: NHTSA Urges Owners of Model Year 2002-2007 Jeep Liberty and 1993-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee Vehicles to Get Recalled Cars Fixed

Thursday, November 20, 2014
Contact: Catherine Howden, 202-366-9550, Public.Affairs@dot.gov

 

WASHINGTON D.C - NHTSA urges owners of recalled Model Year 2002-2007 Jeep Liberty and Model Year 1993-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles to contact their local dealer to arrange a service appointment to receive the free remedy repair for their vehicles. Chrysler reports it currently has nearly 400,000 parts available to repair vehicles covered by this recall and will continue to produce parts to ensure they are able to meet consumer demand for the repair. Owners who have concerns regarding their ability to receive parts should contact Chrysler customer service at 1-800-247-9753.

 

Chrysler’s recall remedy addresses fuel tank ruptures and fires that can occur if the vehicle is struck from behind in a low to medium speed crash. NHTSA took the proactive step of testing the remedy and today the agency closed its safety defect investigation because it believes the risk of fuel tank ruptures and fires in lower to medium speed rear end crashes will be reduced by the remedy now offered by Chrysler. However, NHTSA will continue to monitor the remedy and Chrysler’s efforts to notify vehicle owners and its effort to remedy vehicles.

 

Owners can confirm whether their individual vehicle is part of the recall by using NHTSA’s free VIN look up tool on safercar.gov or by contacting Chrysler customer service at 1-800-247-9753.

 

NHTSA also issued a letter to Chrysler today expressing concerns with the manufacturer’s current efforts to repair the recalled vehicles. In its most recent update, Chrysler reports that the company has remedied only approximately 3 percent of affected vehicles of a population of more than 1.5 million. The agency is pushing the manufacturer to accelerate efforts to repair the recalled vehicles by proactively reaching out to affected owners with accurate information on the safety defect and the availability of the free remedy repair. NHTSA is also asking for details on what Chrysler is doing to correct any inaccuracies or delays in dealer communications and actions regarding these issues.

 

Owners should make sure their vehicles are registered with up-to-date contact information to ensure they receive notices of safety defect recalls from manufacturers. Further, the agency strongly urges all consumers to utilize any of NHTSA’s many alert tools to quickly learn about recalls on www.safercar.gov.

Stay connected with NHTSA via: Facebook.com/NHTSA | Twitter.com/NHTSAgov | YouTube.com/USDOTNHTSA | SaferCar.gov



#146 paul

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 09:30 PM

    58% reduction                                               Special offer to all KJ JEEP owners                              58%reduction

 

Tom has sent me a email with a a great OFFER to all KJ owners who buy direct from TOW TRUST will get a 58% discount from the web site price of £250.This will mean the VAT and carriage cost of £7.50 to there door you will only pay £135 ...yes £135.Again Tom is aware that Chrysler are not going to pay and is making this offer ..This is really good NEW YEAR news for all KJ owners and at a very reasonable cost.Tom and Tow Trust have yet again come up with the goods I thank him for this GREAT OFFER

 

 

                                                                    £135 INCLUSIVE   OF VAT AND CARRIAGE TO YOUR DOOR

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#147 Moses Ludel

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 11:36 AM

This is very impressive and a terrific contribution from Tow Trust.  Tom Miller and his parents have not only given owners of KJ Cherokee models an opportunity to continue towing, they have done this without a profit incentive!  Tow Trust has defrayed cost dramatically rather than capitalize on a dire situation.

 

I would like to thank the Tow Trust firm, Tom Miller and Paul for their effort.  Paul, you took a constructive initiative and kept up the morale of fellow KJ owners at this forum.  Tom and Tow Trust, you have my deepest respect for your willingness to assist these Jeep KJ Cherokee owners at the UK.  I will make every effort to support and promote Tow Trust at these forums and the magazine. 

 

Moses



#148 Laney

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 12:08 PM

It is really good news but even cheaper here http://m.ebay.co.uk/...364?_mwBanner=1
Same towbar sourced from TowTrust but selling for less.

#149 paul

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 12:39 AM

Thanks Moses for you comments and support for tow trust here in Britain.

 

I have taken note of comments Laney made and will pass on the site to Tom this morning and hopefully will get a reply.

 

Well at least we have additional competition in the market.  At the moment all good for KJ owners when you consider we had nothing 2 weeks back.

 

CHEERS PAUL

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#150 MikeK

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 03:22 AM

Hi All,

Yesterday, 28th December, I fitted my new Tow Trust tow bar.
This was done just lying underneath the vehicle, on the drive.
Including removal of the old one, it took approximately 1 hour.
Looks a good, heavy piece of engineering, with it's EU approval labels.

This morning, 29th December, I took the vehicle to the Jeep dealer, for a retest.
He put it on the ramps, looked at his 42mm 'test tool', looked at my 115mm gap and just laughed.
He said "of course it's passed" - End of story.

Thank you Tow Trust.
Their company motto is "Tow with Trust" - I CAN!
 



#151 JeeperMare

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:04 AM

Nice one.

#152 paul

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:08 AM

      GOOD NEWS   

                                        2ND BAR FROM TOW TRUST  PASSES TEST WITH EASE             

 

    Great news Mikek ...

 

    Well No2 tow-bar  now on the road and all legal great news all round and another one passed by jeep dealership.Appears a easy change over  

    if it can be done in 1HR .Well the answer ito the problem is out there with TOW TRUST AND and the new bar......In previous write ups i have

    stated this bar exceeds Chrysler gap test and here is additional proof that it does .two bars have now passed the test with flying colors..

    Where is Chrysler answer  ??????? still looking on the moon for a supplier....Total let down MR CHRYSLER to all your KJ owners out here

    and i wonder how many will will recommend or buy another Jeep on this performance to date ????

 

 

                                                  ANOTHER KJ JEEP BACK TOWING  LEGAL

 

                                                                                           KEEP THEM COMING

 

      CHEERS PAUL....................Attached File  tank to bar distance.JPG   102.37KB   1 downloadsAttached File  BRITISH FLAG FLYING.gif   33.6KB   0 downloadsAttached File  1saxphon.gif   13.83KB   0 downloads

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#153 shunter65

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Posted 02 January 2015 - 03:57 AM

 

This is great news,

 

Well done to Tom @ Tow Trust and Paul for the efforts made to achieve this, I will be ordering when I return form my holiday in early Feb  B)

 

Happy New Year Everyone!

 

Pat



#154 rose1081

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 06:42 AM

I'm ordering mine tomorrow. :)

Exhast seems to be in the way of one of the top bolts, so looks like we may have to remove wheel. my driveway is pretty cold right now, but husband thinks we can get it fitted so ill keep you all posted on progress :)
Hopefully we have a solution and I can carry on making towing plans

#155 MikeK

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:17 AM

rose1081,

 

Tell your husband no need to remove the wheel.

The one bolt is obscured by the exhaust but it's not difficult.

3/4" or 19mm socket with extension bar.

Get someone to push the exhaust pipe to the side of the vehicle whilst he gets at the bolt, it WILL flex just enough, on the rubber mounts, to give enough clearance.

Give the bolts a good 'squirt' with some easing fluid a couple of days before you do the job.

I used 'WD40 Fast Release Penetrant'.

Easy job! - 1 hour tops, with removal of the old tow bar included.



#156 paul

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:45 AM

Hi all

 

   MIKEK is the first one to fit his own bar so if he can get if done then anyone can........this towbar is your answer to the n46 recall and is the only one available in the uk at present and the cost is very good indeed TOW TRUST could easley take advantage of this really being the only maker and supplier of the bar.The bar advertisted on ebay is the same bar but the suplier buys in bulk hence the price but at least you have choices.....Hope you get the bar fitted sucessfully ROSE 1081 and report back here so as to    encourageothers to do the same and its a LEGAL FIX ......Good towing days ahead for you and all future KJ owners...........  

 

    HAPPY NEW YEAR ... to one and all ................great relief from some weeks back ........GET LEGAL ...GET a TOW TRUST TOW BAR

 

      Cheers Paul..............Attached File  BRITISH FLAG FLYING.gif   33.6KB   0 downloadsAttached File  1saxphon.gif   13.83KB   0 downloads

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#157 MikeK

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:48 AM

Hi All,

I've been watching the comments, about the 'cheaper' supply of the Tow Trust tow bar.
First, let's realise, we are talking of a difference of only '8 quid'.
Why the difference?
Tow Trust have done ALL of the work and offered a solution at a massive 58% discount (£135) if you buy ONE.
The site on eBay is "Towbars Direct", also trading as "Norbrook Trailers" in Cheshire.
They are a specialist towing company and Tow Trusts biggest customer, buying thousands of tow bars, from Tow Trust, every year.
So, he has 'done a deal' with Tom at Tow Trust for bulk purchase discount but, happily, agreed with Tow Trust to pass the extra saving on to the customers.
That's why the £8 difference.
If you want to buy several, I'm sure Tow Trust would also give a little extra discount.
The idea of BOTH companies, is to just provide an affordable solution to ALL Cherokee owners, where Jeep have failed them.

It doesn't matter which company you buy from, either Tow Trust, or Towbars Direct on ebay.
The important thing is that it IS the same tow bar and THE ONLY ONE that can GUARANTEE A PASS on the N46 recall.

BEWARE of second hand tow bars on eBay etc. or even 'new old stock'.
They are just a waste of money and will leave you in the same position.
Don't forget ! Even the MOPAR/Jeep/Chrysler tow bars, that some are offering or using, are NOT LEGAL, because they never had EU type approval for use outside the US.
Even if they do make the 42mm clearance.
 



#158 paul

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:21 AM

HI ALL

          Yes as Mike says beware of advertisted tow Bars any where ,and check they are of the NEW TOW-TRUST VERSION  before you buy and again as Mike says  MOPAR are not legal in this country.Your insurance company may now ask you what tow bar you have fitted when you come to re-isure so make sure you have a TOW TRUST FITTED..

 

           KEEP LEGAL...BE SAFE..........

 

           CHEERS Paul

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#159 Laney

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 11:56 PM

Hi,
Just read on another forum, about the price difference of £127 and £135.The bar from Tow Trust doesn't have the electrics or tow ball they would be extra.
The same towbar from Towbars Direct is a kit and has everything,the electrics,ball etc.
So if you just swap a towbar, not much in it but more of a difference if you require the the lot.

#160 paul

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:42 AM

Hi Laney

        TOW TRUST are a supplier to the trade mainley ,but do supply single tow bars to the public on request.The offer on the forum from them is for a single tow bar unit to the public.....the tow bar for £127 inclusive of electrics is from a major tow bar supplier and hence the bigger discount offered .TOM at TOW TRUST has asked all suppliers to pass on a discount to KJ owners due to the plight they are in.,which I think is a great gesture .Where ever you purchase the tow bar from will result in it being made by TOW TRUST anyway......The choice is yours which is better than having no choice at all some weeks back..

 

 

 Where is chrysler .....still looking for a Tow bar...........Has any one had any new replys from them to date as i have not had any ?????

 

  Cheers Paul

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#161 Laney

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 02:54 AM

Hi, Paul
Thanks for explaining, I think since this process stared I've got into the habit of analysing everything too much, what's this mean, what's that mean etc. At least now it's over.
Thanks again.
cheers.

#162 Moses Ludel

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Posted 09 January 2015 - 01:36 PM

"Over" in Laney's words means an acceptable, EU/UK legal tow hitch solution is available.  It would be great to have Paul and MikeK share their next towing experiences with the new Tow-Trust hitch and ball receiver...Could you start a topic on the subject and let us know your impressions of the hitch for towing?  If you do so, please share details on any additional tow equipment that is either mandatory at the UK or your personal preference for safe towing.  Please note the trailer weight.  Janet Brown shared earlier that the tow capacity of a KJ Cherokee at the UK is ample!  Some, like Janet, tote live cargo, and horse toting is a unique challenge!  We live at horse country in the Far West.  (If you like horses, enjoy my short video on wild horses at northern Nevada!)  I have been around horses and horse trailers since the early 'sixties.

 

Take a peek at my article on towing a Jeep-toting trailer behind the magazine's heavy-duty hauler.  This Dodge Ram 3500 4WD truck with 5.9L Cummins turbo-diesel power has towed trailer weights to 8,500 pounds and is capable of towing far more.  There are devices that I consider essential for trailering safety, experience accumulated over four and a half decades of trailering.  Curious how you approach towing, trailer brakes and controllers, tie-downs and overall trailering safety at the UK.  What's required?  What do you like in the way of additional trailering equipment?  These are useful topics to discuss!

 

I'm also very curious about the KJ Cherokee diesel engines and performance.  Many KJ owners have the diesel option at the UK and EU.  This is a higher tech, common rail diesel.  It would be valuable to share your insights around these engines and trailering.  Would someone care to start new topic related to turbo-diesel KJ power?  I have considered "swapping" a 2.8L VM Motori KJ Liberty turbo-diesel engine into our 1999 XJ Cherokee (U.S. predecessor model to the KJ Liberty/Cherokee).  The engine would replace a 4.0L inline six gasoline powerplant.  Would I be disappointed?  Totally satisfied with the torque character?  Your thoughts?

 

Let's look forward to a much better KJ Cherokee experience in 2015!  Tow-Trust has certainly changed the course...

 

Happy New Year, friends across the ocean!

 

Moses



#163 Laney

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 06:19 AM

Hi Moses,
A little bit of info regarding the 2.8crd engine (not enough to start a topic?) and you may know already.
I remember when I was looking into getting one there are two versions.
They're both 2.8(not the earlier 2.5)
One has 146bhp 266 lbft torque the other
161bhp 295 lbft.
I don't know what was done to make the difference.
Cheers.

#164 Moses Ludel

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:53 PM

Laney, very interesting!  The U.S. counterpart for your "Cherokee" is the "Liberty".  In 2005-2006, the CRD 2.8L turbo-diesel rated 160 horsepower and the 295 lb-ft torque you describe.  This is at a respectable 3,800 rpm for the horsepower peak.  The quick torque rise of a diesel brings in peak torque by 1,800 rpm!

 

The lower output version you mention could be an exhaust emissions package variation, though the performance figures are closer to the 2002-2003 2.5L turbo-diesel first offered in the U.S. as a "49-State" emissions engine.  That powerplant rated 141 horsepower and 253 lb-ft torque.  I remember this engine on display at Camp Jeep and touted as the Liberty's highly fuel efficient alternative.  It did not meet California emissions requirements and was only available for "Federal" EPA or 49-State sales.  The 2.8L turbo-diesel shows up in 2005 with its higher performance level. 

 

This 2.8L VM Motori engine became a J8 Egyptian military Jeep powerplant in a chassis and body similar to the Jeep JK Wrangler (2007-present).  Many at the U.S. speculated that the package would be a Jeep JK Wrangler option.  Unfortunately, this engine would not meet U.S. emissions demands. It never appeared in the U.S. version of the Jeep JK Wrangler, and the VM Motori 2.8L diesel disappears from U.S. engine options with only limited sales in the Liberty.  Do you know what year UK/EU Cherokee models offered these two diesel engines?  Were diesels a significant portion of the overall sales in your Jeep KJ market?

 

Thanks for the insight, Laney.  Do you have a 2.8L diesel-powered Cherokee?  If so, what do you think of its performance?  The engine output "numbers" look good, especially the torque.  My 1999 XJ Cherokee's 4.0L inline six-cylinder engine rates 190 horsepower at 4750 rpm and 225 lb-ft torque at 3950 rpm.  While this sounds impressive for peak power, the rpm for achieving this horsepower and torque is unrealistic for real world driving conditions.  (At open highway cruise, this engine typically spins around 1900-2100 rpm in overdrive.  This is well below power "peaks".)  By contrast, the 2.8L diesel matches the realistic engine speeds for this vehicle or a later JK Jeep Wrangler.

 

If this subject is of interest, let's start a topic!

 

Moses



#165 paul

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:16 AM

Hi all

 I will being towing shortley with my new tow bar and will give a response to how i get on.I will also look at my 2.5 crd specifications and place them on here.

 When the 2.8 came here it was offered with a 6speed manual box (kj) and also higher in road tax pricing.At the time I was considering to buy one but was put off

 by the high road tax against my 2.5 road tax at the time .I remember a face lift model with front and rear bumbers were altered along with the indictors also .Most of the changes where only miner with the 2.8 engine being the big difference.The market forces changed not long after that with the recession coming and the last cherokee here was the next model which was a bigger vehcle and did not really sell in big numbers as the market here was changing .The jeep range today is not large and has a new baby jeep in the line up called the Renegade which is powered by 1.4 ,1.6 and 2.0 units .We still have the cherokee and grand cherokee models with the proper jeep wrangler i think on special order .

 

 

   Make Model          Year       Kerbweight (Kg)       85% (Kg)    Towing Capacity (Kg) Towing Capacity (Lbs)   

Cherokee Sport          2005             1977                      1680.45              2688                                5925                                    

    2.5 CRD

 

Cheers Paul

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#166 Moses Ludel

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:58 PM

Interesting insights, Paul!  Looking forward to your tow test shortly...Curious about your 2.5L CRD experience. 

 

Could you post/start a new topic on the KJ CRD and towing?  The thread on N46 can continue here.  It would be refreshing to hear positive comments after the UK tow hitch dilemma—an account of a KJ actually towing with a new Tow-Trust tow hitch!  Curious about your trailer's weight and tow equipment, too.

 

Thanks, Paul...

 

Moses



#167 Laney

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 10:48 AM

Hi Moses, sorry late reply and I suppose this should be posted somewhere else now :-).Some interesting info you've got there thanks. Yes I have the 2.8crd in the Renegade version. ( now the name of the new "little" Jeep).

Hi Paul, I got the 2005 model as from March 2006 the government increased road tax and it jumped about £200 a year. But as far as I know and just checked the 2.5 and 2.8 are in the same band which is K. Currently £285 for pre March'06 and £485 after.
Cheers.

#168 Moses Ludel

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:52 PM

Laney, I'm glad you can still say, "Cheers!"  Does this mean that the UK has a surcharge for registering a diesel powered KJ Cherokee?  Is that an annual fee or a one-time charge when you first buy and register the vehicle? 

 

Though this seems rather like a penalty, it's really not much different in the U.S.  Locally, we're currently paying anywhere from 0.62-cents to $1.00 (U.S.) more per gallon for low-sulfur diesel fuel over the price of unleaded (87-octane) regular gasoline.  Much of this diesel cost increase per gallon reflects motor use taxes and the low-sulfur processing...So, we're paying our premium with each fill-up. 

 

Before the popularity of diesel engines in cars and light trucks, diesel fuel was much cheaper than regular gasoline...

 

Moses



#169 paul

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 11:35 PM

Hi Laney

 Yes you are correct regarding the present road tax (have got to do mine end of feb) and i remember at the time the tax was higher on first puchase yr against mine at that time.I have towed various caravans here in the uk for a number of years and 3 differnt types since owning the jeep.My present van is not a heavy van having down sized for retirement and comes in with a max of 1265kgs ,which present no problem to my 2.5 jeep.I have to date found the Jeep to be a great vehicle to tow with and returning 30mpg when working hard .I normally get between 28 -33 mpg (british gallon) solo dependant on conditions .I have been towing since 1978 and have done so with various vehices over this time span.I find my jeep to without doubt the best towing vehicle to date that i have towed with,the bottom end torgue is right and takes hills in its stride,motorway driving is effortless and it is rare to  drop out of top gear.I normally tow at 2,000 revs with ease with plenty in reserve to get me out of any problems.It may not have all the bells and whisles of todays vehicles but it does the job with no fuss, and keeps going.and thats all i want .All 4x4 have there problems no matter what the make and Jeep is no exception but i speak as i find and mine has done me proud todate

 

   Make Model          Year       Kerbweight (Kg)       85% (Kg)    Towing Capacity (Kg) Towing Capacity (Lbs)   

Cherokee Sport          2005             1977                      1680.45              2688                                5925                                    

    2.5 CRD

 

 

Cheers Paul..........

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#170 Laney

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 02:44 AM

Paul, I'm getting similar mpg not the best these days but I use a van for work so Jeep doesn't do many miles. Agree I was pleasantly surprised with the instant power when required.
Moses, our tax has many levels.For all vehicles registered Pre 2001 it's worked out on engine size, smaller is cheaper. After 2001 it's worked out on co2 emissions. After March 2006 big jump across the board. And also first year tax varies to so a big emission car can have a huge first tax then a bit less anually. Lots of cars now have zero anual tax if the emissions are low enough.
It really effected the used car market if you want to sell a high emission car (or Jeep)

#171 Moses Ludel

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 08:54 PM

This is very interesting on both fronts:  towing details and the surcharge tax.  The towing sounds impressive, as your diesel has the distinct edge with low-end torque as you note.  I drive the Cummins 5.9L turbo-diesel close to its peak torque rpm for maximum fuel efficiency.  You likely do, too.  Your reasonable trailer weight is appropriate for the chassis and powertrain, this should not create a strain.  

 

I can see that the penalty is not for diesel fuel per se but rather for the emissions from the diesel engine, in particular CO2.  Later turbo-diesel passenger car and even truck engines have lower tailpipe emissions with their catalytic converters and DEF fuel additive systems. 

 

Diesels can hold their own for both performance and emissions.  Mazda has recently played with a lower compression diesel design that gives up some of the common diesel power characteristics but more easily meets emissions standards.  Diesel tailpipe emissions keep getting cleaner.  I've used GDiesel fuel for gains in performance, fuel efficiency and cleaner tailpipe emissions.  You'll find this interesting:  http://www.4wdmechan...el-GDiesel.html.  An added benefit with GDiesel fuel is a cleaner engine crankcase, though the engine oil's color remains "diesel black".

 

So, considering the surcharge for emissions on these CRD engines, do you drive them enough miles to offset the cost difference between owning a gasoline or a diesel powered vehicle?  Your mileage sounds very good.  In U.S. gallon terms, you're averaging 23-27 mpg U.S., and that's impressive.  We purchased a new KJ Liberty with the 3.7L V-6 in the 2002 model year, and I could not get better than 20 mpg (U.S.) from that engine.  Typical cruise mileage was 19 mpg U.S.

 

Moses



#172 paul

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 05:46 AM

Hi Moses

  I think the US gallon is less the the uk hence the difference in mpg.I have to be honest in my case the extra payement for a diesel vehicle when new and also the fuel

 price along with the road tax overal are not in my interests set against a pertrol powered vehicle.My jeep has to date only done under41,000 miles and is now 10yrs old .How ever i did not buy  it to have and sell its was and still is a long term purchase which i am still hoping will do the job i purchased it for Towing my caravan even more so now that i am retired. I do own a second vehicle again diesel and only 1600cc which returns 60+ to the gallon and only £30 pound a year to tax,this one i use more and do not tow with it.I get the best  of both worlds really .i have to say also that even the modern diesels engines 2200cc really do not do more to the gallon than my jeep ,so when anyone says to me that 33mpg in this day and age is a bit heavy then look at a 2200 cc towing and see what you get from them (they also rev higher to get max toque etc) and rely on revs against the jeep engine torque at lower revs which is really what you need for pulling weight.Yes they tow but fuel figures I have been given from owners of these units tell a differnt story and we are giving them 300cc.But at the end of the day its personal choice and i am happy with my choice.I only speak as i find this Jeep of mine .

 

Cheers Paul

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#173 Moses Ludel

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 12:27 PM

Agreed, Paul...I'm a "truck" diesel buff, and when it comes to towing, I want low speed torque and a very quick torque rise.  The 5.9L Cummins ISB engine produced 610 lb-ft torque at an amazing 1600 rpm in stock form.  Due to the modifications I've made, including an axle gearing change, I elected to add an aftermarket reprogramming software that bumped the torque peak rpm from 1600 to 2100 rpm.  With the new tune, the engine still produces more torque at 1600 rpm than it did in stock tune. 

 

Here are the details if you're curious: http://www.4wdmechan...ge-Cummins.html.  Included are results from both the 5.9L Cummins reprogram and our 4.0L Jeep inline six gasoline engine reprogram.

 

Trade-offs...Weight is the critical factor with towing and fuel efficiency.  I am intrigued by the "clean tailpipe" passenger car diesels; when unencumbered by tow weight, they deliver the mileage you describe.  The VW TDI can achieve 55 mpg (per U.S. gallon, about .83 volume compared to your UK gallon) at normal cruise speeds.  This is very impressive, but you're absolutely right: That engine's rpm range for peak torque and horsepower is ill-suited for towing.

 

Moses



#174 paul

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 12:50 AM

Hi moses

  The  Hypertech Max Energy Power Programmers for Jeep  look impressive and easy to use do they do one for kj series diesel here in the uk and if so what is the cost??? i would like to see some comparisons from standard to upgrade mode.If the engine is made to run more effient than fuel mpg will rise along with bhp There are tunning kits here but I have never seen any figures (actual) on what the benifits would be.I will look into the units here in the UK and see what  they offer in terms of preformance and cost etc.

 

Cheers Paul

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#175 Moses Ludel

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 09:33 AM

Hi, Paul, I did a quick tour of the Hypertech website at http://www.hypertech-inc.com/.  This manufacturer only lists the 3.7L KJ Liberty (the UK Cherokee) V-6 gasoline engine for a programmer kit.  My guess would be the level of demand.  There were not enough KJ CRD engines in the U.S. market to warrant the development of aftermarket tuning software.  If Jeep markets more diesels in the future, there may be available software for those engines.

 

I'm curious what you find from UK suppliers and sources for engine tuning software.  This is one of the advantages of programmable PCMs on these vehicles.  In the U.S., the concern is emissions, often referred to as "50-State Legal" to include California.  California has traditionally enforced the strictest emissions requirements, so that is the benchmark for aftermarket companies.  These companies pursue a California Executive Order (E.O.) through California's Clean Air Resources Board.

 

Once a product tests and meets California standards, it is assumed, at least for marketing purposes, smog checks and legality, that the installed product is 50-State legal.  Other states look for this California endorsement, which is referred to as an "exemption" rather than an "approval".

 

Moses



#176 paul

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 11:14 PM

Hi Moses

          I have found a few suppliers of tunning stuff fot the 2.5 crd cherokee here prices range from a few pound upwards to a couple of hundreds.I am looking for reviews regarding who who in the tuning world here .all offer better mpg and torque etc .They either offer a plug in box( uses remap in box not cars) or a total remap of vehiclesmapping .As far as i can see at present nothing like what you used there on the video I will contiue to look and read and report back

 

.Today i towed for the first time on the new tow trust bar and found it to be slightley different than my old witter bar .The caravan hitch head was easier to fit on to the tow ball as the lenght of the bar holding the ball attachment was longer than old tow bar (rear wheel carrier overhang)  ,thus allowing the placement of the caravan head to ball  easier.I also noticed on the road that the overal wieght at the rear was better due to the bar being positioned outside of the bumper (the older bar was under and inside the bumper(fender)) I will do a complete test on a road run when i go on vacaition later as I will be travellering on motorways

which throw up all sorts of issues when towing..

 

Cheers Paul

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#177 Moses Ludel

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 07:56 PM

Thanks for the trailering observations, Paul... Weight of the trailer?  Do you use any kind of load distributing setup or is this using only the Tow-Trust ball mount shown in the pictures?  Trailer brakes in use?

 

Moses



#178 paul

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:12 AM

Hi Moses

  I don`t use any weight distributing only to load my vehicles in manufactures reccommendations ,I do have a anti snaking device fitted (incorparated in van) and the caravan has brakes fitted (braked trailer).The weight of the caravan uploaded is 1200klg ,which is a good balance with the Jeep.

 

Cheers Paul

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#179 Moses Ludel

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 10:16 AM

Sounds good, a relatively light caravan package with brakes, good for the KJ, safe for towing, Paul! 

 

Your anti-snaking device, is that like our sway control?  Is this a friction brake at the tow yoke of the caravan to help prevent whipping?  Here's the U.S. Drawtite version of a sway control:  http://www.draw-tite...nk0vinEnFq6tMQe.  The device is basically an adjustable friction brake that goes between the trailer (van) yoke and the hitch mount, alongside the ball. 

 

Moses



#180 paul

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 11:30 PM

Hi Moses

 The anti snake you use in the U S A is like some of the stablisers used here  

 

  http://www.bulldogse...ke-stabiliser/9  .(friction pad on bar) unit is attached to van and vehicle by brackets.

 

Today all new caravans have a AL-KO unit fitted as standard which uses friction pads in the head(no grease on tow ball head) and a sensing unit fitted to the van to adjust either wheel brakes to bring the van back into line  

 

 

  

 

 My van is fitted with the AL-KO system and i have yet to experience a snake action when travelling .I have driven at the legal trailer speeds here on the motorhway (60mph) and the trailer(van) has remained solid , side winds are controlled (large vehciles passing) making the towing feel safe at all times.The alko stabliser set up is excellent and provided you mantain the head friction pads gives you safe anti snake towing with in the legal speed limits.I have to say i have never towed above the legal linits but feel sure the set up would cope with it.

 

Towing since 1978 first car a Lada 1200 with Ci cadet caravan drove to jona groats (SCOTLAND) and back what a first tow experience ........

 

http://www.visitjohnogroats.com/

 

Cheers Paul

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#181 Moses Ludel

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 08:59 AM

Paul, the Al-Ko is a very impressive device, a passive (automatic) brake controller that uses the trailer/van's brakes.  Applying just the trailer brakes is a known safety measure when towing, but in the U.S., we must apply this manually by using the electronic brake controller's auxiliary hand/manual brake apply lever.  This of course requires a distractive move, with one hand reaching for a brake controller lever that is typically mounted at the lower ledge of the dash board.  The driving scenario is typically a 6%-8% downgrade with a fully loaded trailer pushing against the tow vehicle and wanting to run over the top of it—euphemistically referred to as "the tail wagging the dog".
 
I've not heard discussion of the Al-Ko device in the U.S., but it should be marketed here.  The automatic application of the trailer's brakes is a major safety advantage.  The concept is clearly proven, and the delivery method is very sensible.  Some quick questions:
 

1) What does this system cost? 

2) Did you install the system yourself?

3) Does the sensor rely on battery current from the tow vehicle? 

4) Is there a battery backup on the van/trailer, too? 

5) If the van/trailer should uncouple (accidentally or in the event of a collision), would the Al-Ko brake system apply the brakes?* 

 

*Your trailer likely has its own brake apply for when/if the van/trailer uncouples from the tow vehicle.  We have that safety feature in the U.S. systems: a battery source on the trailer chassis activates the brakes when a cable connected between the tow vehicle and trailer pulls a pin switch on the trailer. If the tow vehicle and trailer should separate, the cable pulls the pin, and the trailer brakes apply.

 

The size van/trailer illustrated in your Al-Ko video is very practical.  In the UK and elsewhere, the use of camping and lighter trailers has been popular for a long time.  At the U.S., there has been a tendency (obsession?) with bigger travel trailers or RVs, and that trend has gradually yielded to the currently popular "lightweight" trailers.  While the big "fifth wheel" trailer still has a ready market with higher gross weight vehicle truck owners, many of us have our sights set on the lightweights.
 
We will be acquiring a travel trailer and know that 26' is the limit, more likely an RV trailer in the 23' range with a slide-out.  We have a rather stout tow vehicle, the Dodge Ram 3500 4WD.  These trucks have traditionally towed trailers in excess of 12,000 pounds trailer weight (5443.1 kg), though I've never pulled a loaded trailer over 8,500 pounds (3855.5 kg) with our truck.  My wife and I reason that the truck's health and lifespan does not warrant any heavier loads. 
 
Fuel efficiency drives our decision, too.  I can tow 8,000 pounds and get 12-13 mpg (U.S. gallon).  A trailer in the 5,000 pound range would increase fuel efficiency to around 16-17 mpg (U.S. gallon).  Overall weight is the decisive factor.
 
Some questions about a UK "caravan":
 

1) What is the length of your trailer?

2) Do you find the interior space adequate for your kind of travel and overnight stays?  

3) Do you stay where there are hook-ups and is the van "self-contained" if you want to park without hook-ups?

4) What would be the longest (number of days) and furthest trip you might take with the van?

 
Thanks for sharing, this is very interesting, Paul!  The Al-Ko video is very helpful for understanding this safety device.
 
Moses



#182 Moses Ludel

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:36 AM

     An upbeat exchange on trailer/caravan towing experiences has begun at our travel trailer forum.  While the Jeep KJ Cherokee/Liberty N46 topic will remain available and continue right here to meet our members' and guest's needs, we also invite your participation at the 'Travel Trailer and Toy Hauler Forum'...     

  

     Our first topic at the Travel Trailer and Toy Hauler Forum is "Sharing U.K. and U.S. Travel Trailer and Caravanning Experiences".  The exchange begins with the last replies (above) by Laney, Paul and Moses. 

 

     This new forum topic bridges the Atlantic Ocean and provides a friendly place to discuss and compare trailering/caravanning experiences, how to tote horse boxes and experiences with towing utility trailers.  Share your experiences and equipment details.  If you have comments or questions about safely equipping your tow vehicle and trailer/caravan, join us for a lively and helpful discussion at:

 

http://forums.4wdmec...ng-experiences/

 

     We would like to know more about your towing lifestyle, tow vehicles and the use of trailers and caravans at the U.S. and the U.K.! 



#183 chris fennell

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 10:47 AM

Hi Laney

        TOW TRUST are a supplier to the trade mainley ,but do supply single tow bars to the public on request.The offer on the forum from them is for a single tow bar unit to the public.....the tow bar for £127 inclusive of electrics is from a major tow bar supplier and hence the bigger discount offered .TOM at TOW TRUST has asked all suppliers to pass on a discount to KJ owners due to the plight they are in.,which I think is a great gesture .Where ever you purchase the tow bar from will result in it being made by TOW TRUST anyway......The choice is yours which is better than having no choice at all some weeks back..

 

 

 Where is chrysler .....still looking for a Tow bar...........Has any one had any new replys from them to date as i have not had any ?????

 

  Cheers Paul

Please see attached for latest reply from Jeep. They are now saying although a UK manufactured tow bar may meet the requirements of the recall campaign for specified clearance  it also has to meet the impact requirement as well.

This a total delaying tactic by Jeep to get their tow bar on the market , thats if they ever do.

But its even more worrying that the dealerships are passing this Tow Trust bar and head office have other ideas about the recall campaign.

I am now at a total loss with Jeep, after having their cross beam fitted then seeing the fitted bars from Tow Trust, to me it is a no brainer the Tow Trust bar would be the strongest in a rear end shunt.

I still feel I am going to fit the Tow Trust bar but worried that is still not legal. Can you tell me for the bar to get its EU certification ,has it been impact tested. I imagine that it has not been impact tested on a vehicle.

I shall be contacting Jeep yet again and will let everyone know their reply.Attached File  Jeeps Official stance 001.jpg   119.86KB   25 downloads



#184 Laney

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 02:35 PM

Thanks for keeping us updated.
I'm sure I read,probably further back in this thread that Jeep never got the KJ Cherokee approved for towing anyway.
Is it "whole vehicle type approval"?
Seems a bit off for them to be saying which towbars they approve of.

#185 rose1081

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 02:47 PM

But their original recall instructions to their own dealerships made no mention of checking the make or model to ensure it was up to any impact standards. So what are they going to do with all the ones they passed? Recall the recall? Or just stop towtrust selling a bar that fits?

Most akward company I've ever dealt with. Immensely dislike jeep!

#186 shunter65

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:14 PM

Please see attached for latest reply from Jeep. They are now saying although a UK manufactured tow bar may meet the requirements of the recall campaign for specified clearance  it also has to meet the impact requirement as well.

This a total delaying tactic by Jeep to get their tow bar on the market , thats if they ever do.

But its even more worrying that the dealerships are passing this Tow Trust bar and head office have other ideas about the recall campaign.

I am now at a total loss with Jeep, after having their cross beam fitted then seeing the fitted bars from Tow Trust, to me it is a no brainer the Tow Trust bar would be the strongest in a rear end shunt.

I still feel I am going to fit the Tow Trust bar but worried that is still not legal. Can you tell me for the bar to get its EU certification ,has it been impact tested. I imagine that it has not been impact tested on a vehicle.

I shall be contacting Jeep yet again and will let everyone know their reply.attachicon.gifJeeps Official stance 001.jpg

 

 

Well this is NOT what I wanted to read.. Ive just purchased the TowTrust (TCH1) towbar and its stood in my kitchen keeping warm!

 

Im now a little reluctant to fit it..  because it seems we are still in a no-win situation with even with a towbar that meets the recall mesurments.

 

Do I return it?.. or keep it?

 

Regards Pat



#187 JanetBrown

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:35 AM

Below is the response to an email I sent earlier today, the email has not answered any of the many questions I have asked for the second time.  However it does say that I will hear further by the end of next week - mind you not going to be holding my breath:

 

We have identified a source for a tow bar which is currently undergoing tests to ensure it complies with the requirements of the Recall Campaign. We hope to conclude the process as soon as possible and would like to assure you that we are doing everything we can to expedite this. We will contact you with further information as soon as this becomes available.

 

Please be assured that we will provide you with a further update on this matter by the end of next week.


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#188 MikeK

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 05:43 AM

Hello All,

 

OK, these statements are very worrying !!

It does not make sense to me.

More importantly, it does not make sense to the 'professionals' either.

 

This morning, I had a call, from Tom at Tow Trust who, understandably, is VERY concerned about these reported statements.

He is SO concerned, that he has been in touch with Fiat/Jeep UK and spoken directly to Martin, who is the Campaign Manager for the UK N46 recall.

With Tom's years of expertise in design, test and supply of Tow Bars and Martins expertise in the UK recall requirements, I have been asked to pass on the following information, on behalf of TowTrust/Fiat UK.

 

The requirement was to fit a safety bar, of some sort, that would protect the fuel tank, in the event of a rear end collision, that provided a minimum of 42mm clearance, from the tow bar to the fuel tank.

Fiat/Jeep UK were prepared to either:

  1. Fit a safety bar, where no protection existed.
  2. In the event of a tow bar existing, check it met the minimum 42mm clearance.
  3. In the event of an existing tow bar not meeting the 42mm clearance, give the customer the choice of [a] Replacing with the safety bar [b] Give the customer the choice of keeping the existing tow bar and asking them to sign the work sheet, to acknowledge that they had been given the choice of replacing with the safety bar but had declined this, to keep their tow bar that did not meet the 42mm requirement.

So long as the above options were adhered to, Fiat/Jeep UK had fully discharged the voluntary agreed responsibilities, as far as the N46 UK recall was concerned.

 

Where this started, in the USA, where most of the affected vehicles were gasoline (petrol) not Diesel, the situation was a matter of urgency so, Jeep took the decision, AS A SHORT TERM MEASURE, to start fitting an existing tow bar, whilst they designed and manufactured a cheaper alternative (the safety bar). They also decided to offer the same solution to both types of fuelled vehicles on a global basis.

 

They did not intend to supply tow bars as a permanent solution because [a] the cost [b] the existing tow bar was not approved for use outside of the USA. The tow bars were only a short term measure, whilst they got approval for the safety bar. That is what they now fit in the USA also.

 

Fiat/Jeep have NEVER had any plans to procure a tow bar that has been approved for use in all affected countries because it would be a costly exercise for what is a discontinued vehicle, and THEY STILL DO NOT HAVE !

 

This left UK customers with a towing problem.

They had a discontinued vehicle that, itself was designed for towing but, in most cases, no suitable tow bar.

Step in Tom and Tow Trust.

 

Working with information provided by Martin, the Fiat/Jeep UK N46 Recall Campaign Manager, they designed a tow bar that met ALL of the N46 recall requirements. 

They then went to the expense of having this tow bar FULLY TESTED and CERTIFIED to the required EU type approval, for a tow bar fitted to that particular model of vehicle.

Those tests are VERY STRINGENT, simulating the tow bar actually fitted to the vehicle and coupled for towing, then subjected continually, to forces in all directions, which include Tensile, Compressive, Shear and Impact at forces EXCEEDING the 3.5 UK Tons of towing capability of the vehicle.

 

This test is run CONTINUALLY, for around 2 million cycles.

The tow bar is then removed and submitted for minute inspection for ANY cracks or distortion etc.

ONLY if it is subsequently found to be in the same, perfect condition, that it was before the tests were started, it is then issued with EU type approval certification.

 

Both Tom and Martin are VERY CLEAR!

The Tow Trust tow bar fully meets and exceeds the N46 recall requirements AND Jeep/Fiat UK applaud Tow Trust for achieving this.

The Tow Trust tow bar fully meets the EU certification requirements, for use on that particular vehicle, EITHER WITHOUT towing, or towing with up to 3.5 UK Tons tow weight.

THERE IS NO OTHER REQUIREMENT to be met !

 

Both Tom at Tow Trust AND Martin who again is the Campaign Manager in charge of the UK N46 recall, are VERY ANGRY about the current reported situation, to this degree.

 

First, as an independent, they have asked me to post the forgoing information to allay concerns.

Second JanetBrown. They please ask you to forward the above email to Tom at Tow Trust at the following ... tom@tow-trust.co.uk

Tom will then forward to Martin, as he has been requested.

Martin's intention is to identify those responsible and take disciplinary action !!!

JanetBrown, please do this as a matter of urgency !!

 

To summarise, the information provided from Fiat/Jeep UK, via Tow Trust, is as follows.

  1. The Tow Trust tow bar meets and exceeds all N46 recall requirements.
     
  2. It also meets and exceeds all EU type approval requirements.
     
  3. It is perfectly suitable for use, without any additional liability.
     
  4. The only requirement from Fiat/Jeep UK is that it meets the N46 recall requirements.
     
  5. Fiat/Jeep UK have no intention of supplying an alternative tow bar, for a discontinued vehicle, there is either the Safety Bar or the Tow Trust tow bar, there will be no third alternative.
     
  6. Any information provided, to the contrary, is considered totally inaccurate and, if proof of origin can be supplied, WILL be pursued by Fiat/Jeep UK.
     

Tom, Martin, I trust I have reported all of the above, as intended.

JanetBrown, please help to 'put this to bed'.



#189 Laney

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 04:30 PM

MikeK Hi,
Have you seen the PDF posted at no186 further up?
Its the letter from the Directors Office at Fiat Group UK.
Its signed at the bottom and also CC to Steve Zanlunghi,
MD Group autos UK.
Seems like they guys at Fiat/Jeep aren't talking to each other.

#190 MikeK

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 01:03 AM

Laney,

NO! All that there is, is a link to a Jpeg picture (not a pdf) and, if I open it, I only see less than half of the original document.

Can anyone please provide these emails and documents?

It would seem that Jeep are telling users one thing and the trade another.



#191 MikeK

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 02:00 AM

OK, update.

I've managed to copy the JPeg picture of the last part of the document, from the earlier post.

This has been emailed to Tom.

He's just confirmed that it has been forwarded to Martin.

He will keep me informed of developments and I'll report on here - Let's see what happens.

 

Meanwhile, I'm wondering - the letter states that it would also need to be check that it meets Jeeps "Impact Requirements".

I've been re-reading the guidance PDF, from Jeep to their Technicians, regarding how to conduct the N46 recall.

Basically, it tells them to [a] Check there is a least 42mm clearance [b] check that there are no sharp edges or protrusions that, in the event of an impact, could pierce the tank.

I'm hoping that someone inside Jeep have miss-interpreted their own instructions, with regard to instruction [b] and wrongly assume there is an impact test instead of a visual inspection that nothing will pierce the tank following impact.

If, as I hope, this is the case, then the 'Impact Test' has been automatically conducted, during the recall inspection and thus, the requirement HAS been met.

 

Here's hoping, let's see.



#192 JanetBrown

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 12:35 PM

Mike K et al

 

I have, as requested forwarded the recent round of emails between myself and Jeep Customer Relations to Tom at Tow-Trust.  Jeep had promised a response by the end of this week.  Should I get a response I will let you all know what it is.



#193 paul

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Posted Yesterday, 12:04 PM

Hi All

Well having returned from small vacation with my caravan i see that nothink new has really come out from Jeep.The Statement from them saying they do not endorseany after market tow bar for the jeep is there choice.How ever they are aslo saying that they are looking into a alternative towbar.My question is this how are they going to tell you of any other towbar given the state they do not endorse any after market towbar????.I have said before that they are not going to go to all the cost of testing etc for a out of production vehicle.They have by checking fitted towbars and giving the owner the choice of whether to retain or have there bar fitted met the legal requirements .The TOW TRUST bar as stated above no only meets the test set by jeep but exceedes it .The bar has been tested by tow trust and meets all saftey requirements needed for the uk market.and has been issue with the certification labels on the bar.Thanks to MIKEK for the breakdown above(postings)and aslo to Jantet Brown for her imput.Nothink has really changed only time .

 

Cheers Paul

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#194 Laney